Interview Transcript

Intro:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

This week we turn our attention to an extraordinary chapter in modern leadership: The life, papacy, and recent passing of Pope Francis, and what it means for the future of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis redefined papal leadership with humility, authenticity, and an unwavering commitment to service. He was known for his simplicity, choosing modest accommodations over the grand papal apartments, and for his relentless focus on marginalized communities.

Francis led with a powerful combination of moral courage and pastoral care, challenging the church to confront uncomfortable truths while emphasizing mercy over judgment. His leadership model wasn’t about authority alone, it was about trust, inclusion, and the sometimes radical act of listening.

Now, as the church faces the profound moment of electing a new pope, leadership dynamics once again come into sharp focus. The conclave of cardinals gathering behind closed doors in the Sistine Chapel will weigh not only theological direction, but also the character and the vision of the next pontiff. They must choose someone capable of uniting a global and often divided church. Someone who can build on or depart from the legacy Pope Francis leaves behind.

Today we’ll not only explore the leadership qualities the next pope will need in a world of political polarization, humanitarian crisis, and dwindling religious affiliation, but we’ll also unpack how the secretive, centuries-old process of papal election reflects both tradition and urgent modern realities. And you’ll stay with us, hopefully, as we reflect on the leadership life of Pope Francis, the lessons we can draw from his example, and the crucial leadership crossroads now facing one of the world’s oldest and most influential institutions.

Ren:

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, as usual, joined with Allison Barr. Allison, how long has it been since your last confession? I’m just kidding. Have you ever seen a pope, whether it be Pope Francis or anyone other? Have you ever met anyone who’s witnessed the pope drive by in his pope —

Allison:

Did you say in his popemobile?

Ren:

That’s what it’s called.

Allison:

I’m still just laughing because I didn’t expect you to ask me about my true confessions, but no, I have never seen —

Ren:

Yes, I know I snuck that one in there.

Allison:

I know, well done. I’ve never seen the pope in person, have you?

Ren:

No, no. I have never seen the pope in person. I guess John Paul was … I had the most understanding of the pope when John Paul was around, him and his red like Gucci slippers.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And then I think when Francis came into style, I was like, “Cool. Pretty chill.” But no, I’ve never even met anyone who’s seen the pope.

Allison:

No, I don’t think I have either. But now I’m sort of questioning myself. I have to ask my dad, because I believe that my dad had visited Vatican City and now I’m having … Memory’s a funny thing. I was very young, so I’ll have to ask him. So there’s a possibility that Ed Barr might’ve seen the pope. To be continued.

Ren:

Seen the pope in the mobile. Well, I think today, regardless of if we’ve met the pope or people who have, I kind of wanted to take it in 2, I think part of our time reasonably can look to investigate kind of Francis’s policies, his life, some of the things he was known for. But I also think it’s interesting to kind of take a glimpse behind the doors and look at the conclave itself.

And by the time this recording goes out, there’s a chance someone may have chosen a new pope. The Cardinals are going to decide starting on May 7th. And the way that the ballot structure works, I think Francis was actually the fastest one selected. It took him 5 ballots and we can talk more about the process, but 24 hours to be selected. I think the longest time it took to select the pope was in the late 1200s, took 3 years to choose a pope.

So who knows where we’re going to be, but that’s sort what I’m thinking. A little bit of Pope Francis and a little bit of the conclave. How’s that sound?

Allison:

We can check back in a year. We might be undecided still. We’ll see.

Ren:

That’s funny. That’s really interesting.

Allison:

We’ll see.

Ren:

All right. So what do you want to start? You want to start with the system, or do you want to start with the man?

Allison:

Let’s start —

Ren:

Or is there a difference? No, I think there is.

Allison:

Let’s start with the man. Let’s start with the pope himself, which I think when we were talking about what to talk about today, I was thinking, “Well, the pope has a much different tactical job than most of our leaders, I would think, and a specific role to lead the worldwide Catholic Church.” And there are definitely some leadership highlights that we can take away. But upon initial thought, I was wondering where this conversation might go. But after reading about him a little bit deeper, I’ve found some really interesting qualities of him.

And I’m stuck a little bit by the comment that you made in the intro about listening being a radical act and just wondered if that was relevant, how that was relevant, and what your thoughts are there.

Ren:

Well it’s really interesting. There’s this idea of, and forgive me, I know the pronunciation is really interesting, synodality, which is promoting this idea of a culture of listening within the church and around it. Francis would hold these synods. And so it’s interesting that you talk about his role as a leader because globally, sure, he is the right hand of God in every literal sense for this religion and is kind of responsible for charting the path for one of the most globally dominated religion forces. And though, still, he’s kind of a president of a governing body, and he’s got to help manage the cardinals, I think dozens of the cardinals who are going to be voting on the next one were appointed by Francis.

And he really believed this idea that the church must walk together, listening to all voices and not just this top-down decision-making. So he would have these synods where bishops, laypeople, women, young people, would be able to contribute their thoughts and input on key issues like family life and youth engagement. And so the synodality, this posture of listening, I think from an organizational standpoint, it was like an innovation. He said, “I’m going to do this.” It wasn’t a standard practice, but what I think was really groundbreaking, or the part of listening, was as it related to some of the assault conversations that have happened with and around the church.

Francis took a posture of listening before being defensive. And maybe he was the only pope in modern history that anyone who’d ever been victimized by the structure or the system, he gave an ear to as opposed to try to silence them. So I’d say that radical listening for Francis, I think he changed the organization and he changed the informal posture of Catholicism, or the church rather.

Allison:

That’s so interesting. And along similar lines, have you heard of … there was a catchphrase that he used frequently, related to servant leadership, that had to do with sheep. Had you heard this at all?

Ren:

No, I am thinking of a different phrase. So what do you got?

Allison:

He often said that pastors should “smell like the sheep,” meaning that leaders should stay connected to the struggles of “real people” and their hopes. And that leadership requires a presence and not a distance, which goes along the same lines of what you’re saying, in a way, and that servant leadership commitment that he had. And he’s also known for leading by example and not command, which ties into what you were saying too.

He was really inspiring to a lot of people by living the values that he preached and being more of a bridge builder, or attempted to be a bridge builder, more so than dividing groups, and working to foster dialogue, rather than deepening divisions, which I think is really interesting. And it’s not always the position of a leader necessarily. And again, it’s a unique environment, the Catholic Church, but it is leadership, right? So I’m curious what your thoughts are on that, and how you might tie that to leaders in the work world.

Ren:

Well, it’s so cool that you highlight that posture for him because I think … At least for me, I had this interpretation that he was the closest to the peril of humanity than I was ever familiar. Granted, I mean, kind of the pope and selection is outside of my general experience. I don’t identify as Catholic, I’ve never mourned the loss of a pope, but there is this idea of humility and service. And as far as I could tell, he set a new standard for it. And anyone who’s listening, as we start to think about how does this global leader relate to me, it relates to how humble and how service-oriented are you in the teaming and conversations and leadership discussions that you’re having.

Even his name, Francis after St. Francis of Assisi, symbolizing a commitment to the poor and the marginalized. And I think there’s something around can you leverage your own humility, like this idea of leadership humility, this idea of human, the humanity and that humility, can you leverage that to impact your team, to change the vision or brand of a group? I think his visible humility really helped rebuild some of the credibility of the church that had often and continues to be shaken by scandal.

And so I think there is something around, as a leader, how close are you to the people doing the work? And can you be humble enough to recognize that you don’t have all the answers — and secret, leaders, you don’t have to have all the answers. But it’s like, can you be humble enough not to, and then find the place where the answers exist, and be close to the people that you work with. I think that’s like, I hadn’t heard that phrase, but I think it’s really cool.

Allison:

And I think underlining what you said too, and tying 2 things you said together, which was one around the listening and being close. And the closeness, I think it’s an important distinction because it doesn’t mean high oversight, it doesn’t mean micromanaging, if you will. It does mean listening, understanding, seeing the environment for how it is for folks on the ground, if you will. And another favorite message of his for me was, and I’m quoting him again, that “peacemaking calls for courage much more than warfare does.” And we don’t need to get into war. I’m just going to make the direct tie to the workplace and translate it there.

But I think it does take a lot more courage, a lot more nuance, vulnerability, listening, honesty to make attempts to resolve conflict than it does to not. I think it can be easier in a lot of ways for most people to avoid it. And I think you and I probably hear those stories a lot from our clients about the avoidance of conflict resolution or how hard it is, and how that can really lead to team and sometimes organization dysfunction as well.

Ren:

There’s something about the courage to be humble. I think we’re talking about leadership courage in that space too, and I think that kind of courageousness to … One of his other phrases is this idea, who am I to judge? What an empowering posture when in conflict. Because I think it’s so interesting when we talk about conflict in the workspace, so much conflict is value driven, but also I think we often talk about in the program here, systems thinking. You and I think we have conflict because of the walls that exist between us, but we don’t really see it.

And if we started from a place of understanding and listening, the more I learn about your experience, the greater I can ease it, as we often say. And so this idea of who am I to judge any of you as I explore the idea of conflict? Because then I can liberate myself from this idea of a binary right or wrong, and just start to learn what are everyone’s opinions, and really then ideally informing the polarities that we have to manage. Versus, Allison, you’re going to be right today, and well, how do we help you be right and me be right? So I think there’s something swirling around there.

And too, there’s something actionable for you, people who are listening, it’s like how courageous are you being, to being vulnerable? Which I think connects to the idea of service, that connects the idea of humility. Do you have the courage not to lead, to follow? Because as a leader, if you engage in followership, it doesn’t make you less important, it doesn’t remove your title, but it does take courage and it’s not always easy to do.

Allison:

And I think, too, that you’re underlining that it might not ever be a leader’s job to force agreement, but it definitely is often a leader’s job to open spaces where that trust can begin to grow, which is what you’re alluding to. And I’m hoping you can elaborate on something that you just said that really struck me, which was that it takes courage to be humble. Can you say more about that?

Ren:

Well, I think I highlighted it a little bit earlier. There is something around … For me, I think the leader’s role of being willing to embrace the idea of, I don’t have the answer. I was reading a post, I think on LinkedIn or something like that. It said, “When’s the last time you heard your boss say I don’t know?” It’s such an interesting kind of thought prompt, because the courageousness it takes to dismantle probably decades or just this conditioning of you’re the leader, you’re the one in charge, you’re the one calling the shots, you’re the one who has to have the answers. To just be brave enough to recognize that you don’t know everything — that’s wisdom in play.

Intelligence is knowing things. Wisdom is knowing that you don’t know everything. And so I think just cultivating that strong … Cultivating strength in that area, versus someone looking at you and then you have, “Hey, what’s the answer, Ren?” And you’re looking at you, you’re looking at your role, and you’re looking at your bank account, and you’re looking at how much you’re getting paid, and you’re like, “I should have an answer.” But maybe just being brave and being like, “You know what? Even though I’m the boss, I don’t have the answer to this.”

So that’s probably the courageousness I’m talking around and the humility. Boasting can be easy, but often untrue. I think being humble is really challenging, but often really honest.

Allison:

Yes, challenging and honest. And I’m wanting to dig into this a little bit more because we talked, when we started, about getting to the system level too. So I’m going to dip my feet in for a minute.

I was speaking with clients just last week around workplaces and their systems of reward, what you’re rewarded for at the workplace, versus what Pope Francis may have been “rewarded for” is different. And so I’m not insinuating that you shouldn’t be humble, and that’s not what I’m saying, but there is something to consider, right? There are certain environments where being brave enough to say, “I don’t know the answer to that” can be frowned upon, and it causes … just stay with me here.

It can cause some inauthentic behavior at the workplace, because leaders feel like they have to pretend and deflect, or say something like, “It’s a great question, Ren, let me find out the most recent information for you.” Versus just saying, “I don’t know.” And how powerful it can be to say I don’t know. However, sometimes the greater system does not appreciate that very much. And so it can be a bit of a dance for leaders.

Ren:

Thinking about reward and incentive. And I think that’s what you’re talking about. “Hey, how will the environment react to me if I’m honest, if I admit a fault?” And there are … I think you’re right. We work with clients in certain environments where failure is not an option, which is an irony, because then I think we both work in clients who are some of the most innovative in the world. And failure is a requirement. It’s a mandate to move the project forward. We always talk about failing fast, failing forward. Losing is not the problem. Failing to learn from your losses is the problem.

And so it seems like, in an environment where I have to pretend like I don’t know, and we just perpetuate this facade of unknowing — or no, we perpetuate a facade of knowing, but we don’t have the knowledge that could actually move the project forward. Where, in an environment where we’re all being courageous enough — and it starts with you, leaders, you get to set the tone for your team — it all starts when we’re humble enough to be like, “I failed, or I messed up.” And then, “Okay, let’s learn from it. Let’s keep going.” That team is going to win, 9 times out of 10, over the team that says, “We know every answer here, we never fail.” And I think only the reason the other team doesn’t win the 10th time is just luck.

So it is hard, especially if you’re listening out there and you’re like, “Please Ren, give me a break. I can’t tell someone I don’t know the answer.” It’s like, yeah, and maybe there are spaces where you could try to turn up the volume. Maybe you don’t say it all the time, but is there a safer team where you could admit your failure, where you could start to create an environment where you fail fast, or you move to create minimally viable products and therefore are always testing and retesting. That, too, takes courage. A courageousness to be like, “Our process isn’t locked in yet, but we’re going to find the answer.”

Allison:

I love that. And there’s something really unifying and trust building to say to somebody as well, “You know what, Ren, I actually don’t know the answer, but let’s figure it out together. Or do you have any immediate thoughts? I’d love to hear your perspective.” And it’s not to displace ownership, rather to invite ideas and to invite that collaboration that really can be trust building.

And you also said something too, you’ve got a couple of one-liners today that are really sticking with me, I mean you always do, but especially today. You also said that, I’m paraphrasing, conflict can sometimes be a result of a values, I think you said a mismatch or something like that. Can you elaborate there?

Ren:

I mean, I’d ask any of us to think about the conflicts that are the heaviest for us to manage, or those environments where we kind of shrug our shoulders like, “That’s not a big deal.” And for me, it always boils down to the values. If we have a values conflict where I value one thing, and then you value something that’s opposite and might even challenge my values, then you and I have a conflict conversation, not about the issue, but we really start to get issues about ourselves and how we identify with our values, or really how we identify with what’s right and wrong.

And so I think a lot of times, and especially in personal relationships, conflict, I think, stems from these things that we identify with that we hold true as real values. And then I think that can be extrapolated into the workspace, where you’re on a team and you value your team, or you value the work that they put in, or you value the principles that they’ve presented, and another team presents as if they don’t value those things. And then all of a sudden there’s conflict, and conflict that we can’t move past. And so I think some of it is recognizing that we probably share more values than we don’t.

And when conflict is really hard to move through, it’s likely because we don’t know what we value and we don’t know what we need from one another, or we don’t tell people what we need from them, and then our conflict persists. I don’t know. Is that —

Allison:

That’s interesting. That’s interesting. And I think, too, a reminder that 2 people can have differing values and still be okay and accepted / respected. And I think about organizational values as well, and how those can come into play. And this isn’t really … this is just sort of a statement unless you have something to add to it, Ren, is like, I’m just noodling a bit on if your personal values as a leader conflict with the organization’s values, how that might work and if it can work. I don’t really know, but I would think for somebody like a pope, your values would have to align pretty tightly to the “organization,” I would think.

However, Pope Francis sometimes veered — I can see you, I think we’re on the same page here — sometimes veered. What are your thoughts?

Ren:

It’s really interesting when you present the idea of the pope, maybe the expectation of being aligned with, I guess, Catholicism’s values is really important. I mean, Francis is considered the most progressive pope we’ve had in recent memory for multiple generations. And he still really held the line. I mean, he’s been in the Catholic Church for nearly his whole life, ordained in ’63 or something like that, Jesuit priest on the real front lines in Argentina when they had a government that was violent and had a military dictatorship. And ironically, too, kind of got ousted from his first posts in the system because he had this command-and-control style of government where he didn’t have a lot of involvement from the people.

So I think the question around do I, as a leader, need to have the same values as my organization? I think we’ve surfaced this in a lot of conversations we’ve had. And again, for me, that’s not a problem to solve. No, I don’t need to fix you, Allison. I need to get you in the team to do your best work. So how do we meet your values, and how do we meet my values as the organization or something?

And how do we have real conversations with each other? Just talking to a group of leaders last week around this, it’s being honest. “Hey, these are what we value. This is what you value. I want to do my best to meet your values, and sometimes I won’t be able to.” And we’re going to have to do that ebb and flow.

So I think probably as a leader, someone who’s listening, you don’t need to have the same values as your organization. I think you need to be honest if your values are being met, and then find a way to do that “both / and.” And maybe, though, if your organization represents values, then you’ve got a little bit of a different challenge. If you are like, “No, I don’t value this thing that we valued for millennia.” So probably easier, maybe attainable without the badge of Catholicism. That’s interesting though.

Allison:

And again, we don’t need to deep dive, or maybe we do, I don’t know. There’s interpretation too. There’s interpretation of values too, and we don’t need to get too philosophical about it, but what courage means to me might be different to you and so on.

But I like what you’re saying too about the ability to hold 2 truths or more than that. You can hold several things to be true at the same time. And that’s especially important at the workplace and at the organizational level for a leader right now, given just some of the challenges that workplaces are facing. There’s often what we hear from our clients and participants in program is that there’s not one straight answer to this.

And I was working with some scientists last week who like an answer, it’s their job to find the answer, the best answer at least. And when it extends outside of that practice of science, just to the organizational level and how do we navigate complexity, it can be very important to live in the gray there. And that can occur when you have a mismatch in values too, and it occurs at the workplace every single day.

Ren:

I mean just exploring the idea of the subjective of the objective. It’s like this idea of we’re subjective humans trying to define objective truths that are going to be interpreted subjectively. I mean, as an example, there are 22 cardinals who, at least one area called the College of Cardinals Report — it’s a “dot com,” so take that as what you will — but it’s identified 22 cardinals who believe are the “papabile,” I think. That’s my best Latin. You’re all welcome. Would it just be people who are most likely to be elected. I saw a shorter list of 9 individuals, but then I was reminded, too, that for Francis, he was not on many papabile lists in 2013.

And so there is this thing, like, the conclave will have to decide. This group of cardinals, all under 80, and anyone who can execute their orders … Before the voting begins, they hold sessions where they talk about the viability of who would replace the pope. And in doing so, they naturally are going to be talking about their perspectives of “objective truths.” ‘This is what Catholicism looks like, therefore this guy should be it, right?’ And other people are going to be like, “I don’t know. I think it looks like this.”

I think one of Francis’s claim to fame was he’s the first Latin American pope. There’s a couple of new cardinals on the docket who are kind of front-runners. There’s a couple of guys from the US, which is really interesting. I cannot imagine there’ll be a US pope. That would be mind-boggling. There’s a guy, a younger guy, kind of this dark horse from Africa made a cardinal by Francis. But there’s a lot of these deeply rooted European folks who are going to be positioning themselves. Parisians, and Italians, and other things that are the seat of the Holy Roman Empire. They seem to be a better position. And for me, that doesn’t seem like an objective truth so much as a subjective preference.

Allison:

And it makes me wonder about, I’m going to change my language, of course, because I don’t sit in those meetings. So I’m not sure how they would phrase it necessarily, but it makes me think of bylaws almost, like when organizations and groups or teams have bylaws that they need to align on before appointing said leader, or hiring even. And it doesn’t even have to be that written in stone, if you will, but the alignment of, again, translating it to the workplace, where are we now? What is it that we need as an organization? What do our teams need? What’s coming down the pipe? What do we see in the future? There’s a lot. There’s a lot to talk about there.

And I often wonder how frequently organizations consider those things. And when we talk about DAC, our Direction – Alignment – Commitment model, it just brings me right to that place. And it helps to understand, if you are a leader, that alignment piece is so crucial and often is the piece that takes the longest, is the most likely to be revisited. And again, not to simplify what it takes to elect a new pope, but I would imagine some of the types of conversations are similar. I would imagine.

Ren:

I just think it’s a brilliant mirror, because we talk Direction – Alignment – Commitment all the time. And I think it’s pretty standard, Allison, you can keep me honest, but when we have groups score themselves, score their teams, score their organizations, alignment typically is the lowest one. And direction is this idea of, what are we trying to achieve? And I think the conclave knows, we’re trying to elect a new pope. Commitment. Are we committed to our shared success? Yes, the conclave has to be committed to selecting a pope because everyone’s eternal salvation is based on this selection, but the alignment of it all is the struggle. How are they going to align on the agreement of who the pope is, in service of what they’re committed to?

And a lot of these guys, the progressive nature of Francis, I think, has empowered some progressive front-runners. And the ebb and flow of societies and cultures, I mean, there’s going to be 135 cardinals who are electors, who are going to convene and talk. And there’s not 135 progressives, just like there’s not 135 … just like when we look at the statistical distribution of any group of people, there’s so many varied positions. And so I think, their challenge will be, how do we get to where we’re going? And I just wish I could see behind the doors.

I think everyone’s got to revisit the movie Conclave as we talked about in our Oscars video, because what a timely thing, and just how people are voting, and the conversations. I think you even alluded to Francis’s savvy, though maybe like an interpersonal savvy, the way he was able to manage people, be close to the flock as it were. But there is loads of political savvy happening, conversations around what the environment is, who’s the front-runner, how can I put my support behind your candidate? If we can assure that what I would consider a Catholic objective truth is indeed part of the pope’s new plan or something. The alignment is going to be super hard.

Allison:

You’re exactly right. And even if you and I share some similar values, we still might not agree. Even if on paper, yes, we have X amount of values that are similar, you and I, it doesn’t mean we’re going to be on the same page either. And there’s probably a lot of other things that play there, too.

Well, I’ll transition that to the workplace. If we were at the workplace, there might be some ego involved, too. There might be some other things that come into play. And I have to share, last week, a participant, we protect our client names of course, but this woman asked a brilliant question in a group of 20-some leaders, and she said, “Have we defined as an organization what it means to be a leader?”

And there was sort of a quiet in the group, and I asked her to clarify. I said, “If you knew that, what would the outcome be for you?” So if you knew the answer to that, if you had a list or definition or whatever, what would the outcome be? And that generated a really, really important discussion for them specifically as this group of leaders.

And so I wonder, too, what kinds of conversations are framed. Again, we’re talking about the pope here, but I wonder if they align on that, too. What does it mean? What are the behaviors? What does it look like? Almost building out the non-negotiables of this person. And if they are, given what you said, how long it could take to get to that agreement where it’s good enough, not perfect, but good enough.

Ren:

That’s interesting. I love your follow-up question. I mean, what would that give you if you could define it? And it’d be interesting to explore, and I don’t know how the conclave … I imagine they have some definitions of what a pope must do, or who the pope is, rather. They understand that the pope does have this position higher than any other in this religious structure. But it’s really interesting.

The idea of it makes me think, and I say this to folks all the time, you probably said it in the podcast. How do we make explicit what’s thought to be implicit? And often leaders walk around and they’re like, always incredulous, “How could you not know this is how we operate and and XYZ?” And I’m like, “Well, we never talk about this thing, so why don’t you, instead of assuming that I know what you know, why don’t you tell me what you know.”

Now, it’d be interesting, because I actually think that this is some of what the conversations are going to be in the conclave, not only in the general congregations when people talk about the merits of each papal prospect, but during the voting, it’s going to be refining on, “Well, we know that these are some of the non-negotiables, and now we’re going to see how our candidates match up to it.” And I just kind of bristle at the idea of this idea of non-negotiables in leadership.

I mean, I might even say the only non-negotiable you should have in leadership is maybe not having any non-negotiables, because your job as a leader is to fit what your people need from you and what the organization needs from you, not to be like, “No, this is who I am as leader, therefore everything must shift around me.” That does happen sometimes. I don’t know if it works all the time, and it’s certainly not sustainable.

Allison:

I love that you just said that because it’s another … maybe it’s a polarity, I’m not sure yet. But yes, have some intrinsic values, have a compass from which you operate. Definitely. And, to your point, Ren, being able to adapt to what the organization needs, to see, to listen, to create some openness around challenges and needs, needs of the organization is, I don’t want to say more important, but just as important. You have to be able to shift as needed, especially when there’s volatility, uncertainty, et cetera. Leadership can be a lot easier when the conditions are easy. It’s when you experience challenges that you might have to shift those things a little bit.

And it doesn’t mean that you’re changing who you are as a human being. It is that you are being leaderly in your actions to support the greater good, which comes back to direction, alignment, commitment too, right? Are you committed to the greater good of the organization?

Ren:

And have you defined the greater good of the organization? And then do people agree with the definition?

Allison:

That’s an interesting point.

Ren:

I think you called it, right? It’s like this idea of … or the woman in the program did. She’s like, “Have we defined this term?” And then we go, “Well, what would it give us?” And I think, too, we just really quickly fall into these habits of “this is what it looks like,” or I always joke with participants … One of the scariest things I hear is from leaders is the phrase, “But this is how we do it here.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And yeah, and is there more to that? Because if this is how you’ve been doing it your whole life, I can show you a whole bunch of organizations who are like, “Netflix is stupid, digital cameras are dumb.” And they don’t exist anymore. And so I was like, “I don’t know if that’s enough, ‘that’s just how it works here.'” And so there’s something around … If you’re listening right now, and you’re working on a project and you’re having issues, or you’re working with your team and you’re just trying to help each other succeed more … just ask where your shared definitions are and see if you can do it.

That’s why I love the DAC assessment, because a leader will be like, “Oh, the direction is super clear.” And then they give it to their team and everyone said, “No, there’s 5 people on the team. They have 5 views of the direction.” So there’s something around that. You have the abundance of flexibility, and then again, maybe back to the beginning, be humble enough to recognize that the answer doesn’t lie with you, because it can’t. It lies with the people who are going to be executing your plan. So make sure they are aligned.

Allison:

And everything’s up to interpretation, like you just said, right? Using that DAC assessment, which you can Google by the way, that’s available to the public, to our listeners, and strongly recommend that you do use that. Because you can be as clear as day to yourself — the sky is blue, period — but 6 people heard you say something completely different.

I also like what you said about, this is how we’ve always done it, or this is just the way we do things around here. Those are 2 catchphrases that can be dangerous, and dig into that, right? Dig into that if you feel that way, or if folks say it on your team, there’s usually more to that statement. Often it has to do with a resistance to change and a fear that we don’t have the skillsets to do it. There’s usually a lot more to that statement than just that statement, right? I always want to ask people to like, “Keep going with that sentence. Fill in some more blanks.”

Ren:

That’s not how we do it here, because … I built my career around these behaviors, I’ve done it for 20 years, if we change it, what does that mean for me?

Allison:

Right?

Ren:

And that’s interesting. Because I think that zooming back in on the pope and the process, they’ve got thousands of years talking about “This is how it’s done here. This is what it means.”

And Francis, he changed some things. He kind of loosened up some of the structures around what divorce looks like inside Catholicism, enabled remarried Catholics to receive communion, which is really interesting. As I say, really interesting, I think the idea of communion is welcome into this spiritual space with Jesus and you are loved, and Catholicism has a lot of rules that says, “Well, you’re loved under these circumstances.”

And so it’ll be interesting to see how the borders are defined, or maybe the borders are clear; they’re behind the Vatican City walls. But the amoeba of how far do we flex inside those boundaries? It’s an interesting metaphor for leadership. A part of your job as a leader is to define some boundaries and then let people fluidly move inside of it to kind of fill what works. And maybe it shifts. Likely it does shift depending on the day, depending on the project, depending on the market.

Allison:

I mean, I think you highlight, too, that a foundation of an organization can remain the same while things inside of it shift a little. Again, Catholicism and the Catholic Church has a different foundation than most workplaces. And if you find yourself resistant to that shifting and the adapting and changing how you do things, again, I think it’s just worth some investigating.

And I know we’re probably coming up on time here soon … but I think that the last thing that I want to say that really stuck out to me, that is a direct translation to leaders, that Pope Francis did not pretend that obstacles and problems don’t exist. He did not pretend that. However, he consistently offered a message of resilience and hope, which can be really important if you’re navigating difficulty or shakeup at your workplace.

Being honest about challenges and also painting a clear picture and a clear vision of how the team can move forward is a really important takeaway. I think people can usually handle tougher news better if they know where they’re going. It’s that uncertainty that can be very disruptive.

Ren:

It makes me think, too, when we were talking about the idea of the person who says, “This is how we do it here,” and then they link their whole identity or career to it. Now, some of what you’re talking about is what we tell leaders to lead change. It’s recognizing that someone’s kind of having to let go of something, and that’s changing their environment, their experience, and so help understand that, give people a sense of where they’re headed, but also space to recognize that you’re experiencing a loss.

Change happens the moment the pope dies. The transition happens as we select a new pope, as we talk about what the future of Catholicism looked like. Change happened in an instant. Transition is going to be the hard part in helping people in and out of the conclave. I imagine the most influential players balance the line between that mourning of what’s lost, the recognition of all that had been, and a clarity on where we’re headed.

And there has to be some visioning from these leaders too. I don’t know. I don’t think people are standing on a dais or giving a podium speech about things. I think that happens in large group discussion and likely has been happening for years. It’s not like all of a sudden now we’re trying to select the pope. I think the papacy, they’re always looking at who’s going to be filling the shoes.

I mean, Francis wasn’t on any lists because he was considered to be too old to be the pope, whatever that means. Now he’s been rocking for, I think his papacy was 12 years long, nominated in 2013 or chosen in 2013. And so, it’s really interesting. I think in that space, helping people identify the transition, identify the loss, see where they’re going … that tends to help people be a lot more effective. In the very least, it helps you lead the people that you’re around.

Allison:

Indeed. And as I consider, in this conversation, the future of leadership as well, it will mean utilizing some of those more human-centered behaviors that we both spoke about today. And we saw this frequently from Pope Francis, of course, anchoring in core values, leading through service and not necessarily status, communicating with hope and honesty, and utilizing some emotional intelligence in the process.

So I think if I could leave our listeners with anything, it would be that, and also to Google the DAC assessment, D-A-C DAC assessment, that would be a great tool for you. What’s one thing that you would like to leave our listeners with today, Ren?

Ren:

Let me ponder on that. But one thing I think I alluded to at the top, and I highlighted some of how the conclave works, but I want to help you because you might be listening to this while people are behind the doors in the Sistine Chapel. And I think it is this kind of mystical thing around what do they do, how do they do it? And so I’ll answer that maybe takeaway as we set the stage for the conclave.

I think there’s some rule after the pope dies, you have 21 days to start the voting. And as the Vatican confirmed, the conclave will begin on May 7th, but leading up to May 7th, there are all these general congregations, as I mentioned, where we look at the merits of who might be the next papal prospect.

There’s 5 rounds of ballots before we take a break. “We” and “break.” So the first ballot is held on the first afternoon of May 7th, and the ballots are placed into one of 2 small ovens, depending on how it goes. And the idea is that in order for people to select a new pope, there needs to be a 2/3 plus 1 majority in the conclave. So I guess, 135 … let’s do some math real quick. Half of that is … we’re going to do it together. So 90, maybe a hundred people need to say yes to who’s going to be the pope. And that happens not … and I don’t think it’s ever happened in the first ballot.

Then the next day begins, they do 2 ballots in the morning, 2 ballots in the afternoon. If the voting process continues and they haven’t found someone, they take a break on that third day for prayer, for brief spiritual exhortation as it’s called, just to think a little bit more about what’s going on. And then they have to sit in that room and decide, and that goes on until they make a decision.

And it’s interesting. I wonder, when we think about the structures, when we think about the nature of how to create the buy-in from people … 135 individuals, you got to get a 2/3 plus 1 majority … I think one of the things that we think about when we are building coalitions as leaders, when we’re trying to lead effectively, I think there’s got to be something about helping people, putting people first.

I think, like you said, with Francis, the shepherd should smell like the flock. And this idea that maybe, as people are lobbying for their best choices, maybe the Pollyanna-ish part of me thinks that if you can recognize, you can speak to people’s feelings or values, what they care about, you can communicate that to them in a way that they feel seen and heard, then I think that’s mostly what people want. “I’m going to choose my candidate because I want to be seen and heard. They’re going to see me and hear me.” What if other people see me and hear me? Maybe that loosens my rigidity around how I am seen and valued.

And so when I think about leaders, your takeaway for this is, as you’re working with teams, as you’re working with people, do you know what your people need? Do you know what they value? Do you know what they care about? And have you had a conversation with them about how you’re working to either achieve those goals, and are being honest with them about when you can’t? And so I think those are some really practical things that you could likely do. I don’t know if it’ll make you the next pope, everybody, but I think it could very well make you a leader that people want to work with and a leader that people want to work by.

Allison:

I mean, we’ll see. Today is the 28th of April. We’ll see how long this takes. I mean, your guess is as good as mine, Ren, because … thank you for explaining that process. I wasn’t clear on it either. And now I understand why it could take so long. So we will find out.

And again, to all of our listeners, another question you could ask yourself is, who needs me to be a bridge today? And how can I step into that role? That’s one thing that Pope Francis did quite well. And we know that your jobs are difficult and often quite nuanced. And one of the best things that you can do is ask yourself, what does my team need?

So thanks for the conversation, Ren. I wasn’t sure where it was going to take us, given that you asked me about my confessions. Maybe we’ll talk about that. Maybe we’ll talk about that in a later episode. But to our listeners, thank you for joining us. Find us on LinkedIn. Let us know what you thought about this episode. Let us know what you’d like us to talk about next. And to all of our CCL teammates who help this podcast to get off the ground. Thank you, and we will look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, Ren.

Ren:

Thanks Allison. Thanks everybody. See you next time. Find Allison on the holiest of TikToks.

Interview Transcript

Ren: 

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

[Siren sounds]. Not even old. The second time in a row, Allison, Manager Madness continues again where we, one by one, discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

This time, Bryan Johnson and his search for eternal youth. I actually don’t know how much is known about this guy, but for some he’s a pioneering figure in the realm of longevity and biological enhancement. Frankly, I’ve been calling him “Bryan Johns” for many months before I realized that it’s Bryan Johnson, the founder and CEO of the company Blueprint and self-proclaimed rejuvenation athlete.

He’s gained a lot of attention recently for his pursuits of eternal youth. They’ve garnered a spectrum of reactions, from supporters hailing him as a visionary trailblazer, and detractors cautioning against the potential pitfalls of his ambitions.

Johnson, renowned for his groundbreaking research in cellular rejuvenation and anti-aging therapies, stands as a beacon of innovation in the quest for perpetual vitality. Most recently, not unlike a Bond villain … Is that a thing anymore? Do people know what Bond villains are? Anyway, Johnson has gone to a small island off the coast of Honduras to undergo a $20,000 gene therapy treatment to reverse aging, saying, “I’m traveling to a remote island for an extreme medical procedure that could change the future of humanity.” That’s my emphasis, but you get it.

Partnering with the biohacking firm Minicircle, Johnson will undergo a follistatin gene therapy. I’m pretty sure that’s how it’s pronounced. Don’t at me. And this treatment’s shown promising results in animal testing, even enabling a mouse in one study to live 30% longer than its peers after going through the therapy. As Johnson says, “I left my mother’s womb 45 years ago, and I’m biologically age hundreds of different numbers.”

So with a global audience captivated by his discoveries, Johnson has experienced both admiration and scrutiny. So, amid the optimism, ethical dilemmas and societal implications loom large. Johnson’s relentless pursuit of eternal youth raises profound questions about equity, access, and the potential ramifications of extending human lifespan. So come along, then, as we look at Bryan Johnson’s journey toward eternal youth, exploring the scientific frontiers he pushes and the moral boundaries he challenges.

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what age would you want to be forever?

Allison:

What age would I want to be forever? Do I have a choice in this? I don’t know that I want to live forever.

Ren:

Well, you don’t have to … Yeah, okay, fine. So what age would you like to be until you die?

Allison:

Oh gosh, Ren, what age do I want to be until I die? Let’s see … 35 was pretty fun, but I’m also kind of happy where I am right now. I’m going to assume that, just because I’m that age doesn’t mean that things won’t change around me, and that, well, life won’t progress. Right?

Ren:

You’ll be like a Highlander. Yes. The things that you love will wither and die as you look 35 until your body ceases.

Allison:

That sounds awful, actually. What about you? What age do you want to be?

Ren:

I don’t really know. The reason I bring it up is because Bryan Johnson, he has 18, as one of his major markers of age or youth, and he’s always trying to recruit this biological age 18. But I don’t know if 18 would be my favorite. I feel like in my early twenties I was really vibing it, but maybe I think just … my handsomest, whatever age that is.

Allison:

Okay. Your handsomest, interesting. Say more about that. Why would you choose your handsomest?

Ren:

Oh, I mean, because I really don’t care. And I mean, living forever, like you said, sounds kind of weird, nor do I have a desperate desire to lower my age. But I mean, sure, aesthetically maybe, why not? Or I guess biologically, ooh, maybe as the handsomest my organs have ever been in their mature state.

Allison:

Yes, we are all aiming for handsome organs, Ren. Yes, life goals.

Ren:

I mean, and that’s why I think some of Bryan Johnson’s thing is interesting. Like he says, “I’m multiple biological ages,” and he kind of determines his age by organ age. And so different organs on his body are different ages. His one ear is 65 years old, but his other ear is in its 20s, and he really loves the fact that some of his organs are even younger than his 19-year-old son’s organs. And so, I don’t know, it’s kind of a wild thing once you dig into it.

Allison:

Yeah, it is. And we’ll get to it, probably. You’re making me think of what some people’s responses were when I posted to my own social media, when I knew we were going to record on Bryan Johnson, “Do you know who Bryan Johnson is? And tell me your thoughts.” And some of the comments were hilarious, and some of them were curious, and you’re leading me to one comment, which was, “that guy sounds like he has too much time and money on his hands.”

Ren:

Yeah. Well, some might say time and money well-earned. I mean, this guy does spend time and money on this, but maybe before we get into those details … pulling back a little bit, just from a high-level standpoint. From what you know about Bryan, from what you’ve researched, working for him now in his pursuit of eternal youth, what would you be excited about if you had to work for Bryan Johnson? What would you be worried about if he was your boss? 

Allison:

One of the things that I found … let me pause. Admittedly, I didn’t know who he was when we decided we were going to record an episode on him. So that is the first thing I want to confess. I didn’t have any idea who he was. So I went to his social media, I Googled him, did all the things. I read an interview with him in which, I think this was in Fortune magazine, they asked him, “What do you think about all the people who criticize you?” Because he does get some criticism. And what he said was, “I really like that they engage with me and they’re offering me perspectives that I didn’t have before. And I love it, and they speak up because they care.”

Whether or not he truly means that, I’m going to assume that he does. Having a boss who truly welcomes perspectives, I would really enjoy that. On the flip side, you asked what I might not enjoy. The environment that he’s in, the industry, rather, I would not want to reinforce the standards that he is reinforcing of that kind of company. So I would not want to work for that type of, I’m air quoting “company,” because what he does is up for debate. But you might categorize it under the wellness industry.

Ren:

Okay. I was going to ask, what do you think the company does? And so that’s an interesting idea. I don’t know if I would consider him just a prototypical capitalist. The man is incentivized by some of the biggest incentives now, which is money and beauty. And so I think probably he fashioned Blueprint, or his organization, the Blueprint Protocol, and I guess his … what did I call the business? What is it? Yeah, it’s also, the company is itself called Blueprint. I imagine he probably would fashion himself as like a scientific explorer akin to an astronaut, I bet Bryan would, if you really pressed him to it, based off of the things that I’ve heard him say.

But it’s interesting to think about the wellness. And maybe that, for me, goes into what I’d be worried about, is that … what I’d be worried about in working with this guy in pursuit of this, that I’d be perpetuating things that, I think, talk about the wrong stuff. Are we talking about eternal youth, so he can continue to cultivate wisdom for many more years, to then share it with the next generation so they don’t undergo our problems or mistakes? Or is he cultivating youth to have a 6-pack until he’s 80? It’s a worthy question. However, I would be excited to work with him to get cut in on the Blueprint Protocol for a discount. I got to imagine he’s got some stellar coupons.

Allison:

I would hope so. I mean, he spends, in theory, and he’s been interviewed and so he has said this, he spends about $2 million a year on his protocol. And so, to your point, he’s peddling eternal life. I mean, he has 4 principles of his, I would say his business, but really what his beliefs are, that we’ll get into in a minute, and one of them is to never die. Additionally, there’s an underlying message from him that if you want to be healthy or youthful, you need the money to do that. So if you are poor, or even middle class, you need not apply.

He apparently spends, like I said, $2 million per year. He takes 61 supplements a day. He fasts. He stops eating after 12:00. That kind of lifestyle … you do you, Bryan. You do you. That kind of lifestyle is not accessible to most people. And his approach and, I’m air quoting, the “research” that he does is based just on him as the test subject and only him. So I caution people, because there’s no real empirical evidence that his approach actually works for anyone else like it works for him.

Ren:

Yeah. I think you have to be an informed consumer to navigate these waters, but that’s just the reality in the American healthcare system and the wellness industry, like you said. There’s a lot of snake oil.

So he talks about sharing his stuff for free, and I think before I maybe start to poke holes in the idea, I will honor that. You, right now, could benefit from the $2 million a year that he spends in cultivating. And I think $2 million … like the paying for his doctors and all the people hours that go into the synthesis of data. But ultimately it comes out to the Blueprint Protocol, which you can find on the home page in his website, giving you a rundown of all his diet, the food that you can buy, the whatever, not assessments, but the extra materials that you can do and all of the extra supplements that you can buy to kind of do the Blueprint Protocol.

I was watching one documentary, I think it came up to maybe $1,500 a month for these 2 guys, though they couldn’t get some of it. Like, you can’t find fresh-squeezed pomegranate juice just everywhere. So I think there are some barriers to access, but some of the principles are natural raw foods, clean diet, no drugs, limited alcohol. I mean, he was drinking 4 ounces of wine but then stopped just because he couldn’t afford the calories. I think he’s logging under 2,000 calories a day. So some of this stuff, I’m kind of like, I mean you could access it principally, but maybe that’s more smoke and mirrors than real.

Allison:

And it’s just tricky. Like I said, this is based on who he is as a human being. It works for him. And again, Bryan, you do you. I think the wellness industry codes a lot of things and uses language that is nondescript. Like what is clean eating? I hear that a lot, right? Make sure you eat clean. Okay, tell me what that means. And if you’re going to say organic, for the sake, some people will say, oh, that means organic. Or some people will say, don’t eat processed foods. Okay. How realistic is that for people? And not only in the economy, the type of economy that we live in, but you could live in a food desert. You could have been born into a system where you have to work 4 jobs a day and … et cetera. We all have different life experiences.

We all have different health experiences, too. There are certain foods that might work for me, Ren, that don’t work for you, et cetera. So I just think it’s a little bit dangerous. It’s interesting, because I listened to him speak and I can see his draw. I can see the appeal. He’s welcoming, he’s kind, he’s thoughtful. He makes for a good public speaker. You want to listen to him. And I caution people because, again, what he is selling works for him.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think there’s a balance that I am really keen to continue to explore with you, because personal agency is a big thing for me. And I really believe that a lot of what ails many of us, but I’ll just talk for myself … A lot of what ails me is when I am feeling like I’m lacking my personal agency. And then often I feel resolute, or a little bit more grounded, when I’m able to maintain some personal agency. But then I think it brings up this question like, well, is agency real? You raise up some interesting questions, like what is clean eating? And I would simply say clean eating is no boxes, no wrappers, no bags. But then you raise an interesting question, well, how in the hell could you do that if you live in certain cities in America or you work 4 jobs?

Because no boxes, no bags, no wrappers means that everything’s produce, everything is fresh, everything needs to be cooked or eaten raw. And sometimes life does not afford that kind of reality. And so it is interesting, I think for Bryan Johnson … he says, this all comes down to free will, which is an irony I think, because he said some of the inspiration behind all this was he was learning how to fly, and he was in the flying plane and he turned the autopilot on and it was just super steady. And when he had the sticks in his hands, it was all wobbly and wavery, and he was like this human reaction. And he said, “Hey, how could I get myself out of the process?” And so it’s interesting, he would say, I believe in agency. And so I’ve cultivated this process so I could remove my human element from my own wellbeing. So there’s a lot of polarity images in this, I don’t know, maybe no problem, but a lot of truths.

Allison:

Yes. And where I go too, in what you just said is again, he makes for a very influential public speaker, and he’s good at it whether he’s trying to or not. He’s very measured in the way that he speaks. He never claims that this will work for everyone. I couldn’t find any evidence that he says this will work for you. He says that it might. And what you just said … gosh, I’m going to paraphrase, and please correct me. He said, taking the human element. What did he say? Taking the human element out of?

Ren:

Out of his wellbeing.

Allison:

Out of his wellbeing. What does that mean? That’s a concept that means nothing. If you say that in a public speaking, you’re trying to inspire people. “Oh, yeah.” I can see people getting jazzed by that. He has a cult-like following in LA, which does not surprise me. But okay, what does that mean?

Ren:

I think it means that if you follow his diet and you follow his plan, you, too, could have 18-year-old lungs now, like he does.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

I think that’s what he’s saying.

Allison:

But I think you get my point. I hope. To me he speaks in concepts that are fluffy, and they appeal to people, and they do. Whether or not he’s trying to, I don’t know, they’re preying on people’s insecurities. They’re preying on, like you said, a capitalist environment that makes a lot of money from people feeling bad about themselves. Aging is a natural thing. And personally, I just don’t want to mess with that, right? Aging is normal. We’re going to die. It creeps me a little bit. It makes me uneasy, to shoot for a target to never die. What does that … I don’t want that.

But you talked about agency. I went rogue there for a little bit. Let’s come back to that. Can you tell me what agency means? If there’s somebody who’s listening who’s never heard that word before, what does that mean?

Ren:

Making your own choices based out of your own desires.

Allison:

So, do you think that’s real?

Ren:

Well, and I think that’s an interesting question, because then you have to dig into what are your choices, and are they yours, and what are your desires, and are they yours? And it was interesting. You said that Bryan’s preying on people, and it made me think. Is he, or is he just the prey? Because Bryan doesn’t have anything … he’s rich, he’s wealthy. He’s wealthy enough to go to a secret island off of Honduras just to try something that did well in mice. He spends a lot of money, and I don’t think he’s trying to make more money. I think he might be a victim of the systems of reward that are in place: this idea of make money, make beauty, do those things or you’re not worthy.

And so then I go, okay, is agency real? And for Bryan, it’s all agency. So maybe he’s talking about the truth, that part of his human mechanisms he can’t control, so he removes them to then have no control, but all to meet the ends of the society he’s inside of. So probably, the deep philosophy of me says, no, agency is a fallacy. Free will is an illusion. Even the concept for some people isn’t even practically real. Like you said, in a food desert, I don’t have the free will to get fresh vegetables. That’s not even a choice. So the concept of, “well, take control of your health” is illegitimate. So, I’ll draw a line. No, agency is false. What do you think?

Allison:

Okay, fair. Well, I think if we simplify it to choice … and I know that’s not what you’re doing, but for the sake of the conversation, if we simplify it, do you have choice? Then there is a spectrum. Do I have a choice right now to quit my job? I don’t want to, by the way, just hypothetical. Do I have a choice to quit my job? Yes, I have a choice. Technically, of course I have a choice to do a lot of things. However, there are consequences to choices. And so the consequence to me quitting my job is very different than Bryan Johnson throwing away his business, or to the person who’s born in a food desert, for example. Very, very, very different.

And so, I think when we talk about agency, it’s important to talk about consequences. And that, to me, would be the difference. Now, you mentioned Bryan Johnson being a victim … I see where you’re coming from. And if he didn’t want to make money, if that was not his MO, then he wouldn’t have a business. Why does he have a business then?

Ren:

Well, I didn’t say he was a victim. I said he was prey.

Allison:

Tell me the difference.

Ren:

Well, I was thinking more in maybe … a predator and prey, there is no victim or victimizer. It’s a natural cycle. It is an environmental reaction. And so I don’t know if he’s … because I’m hardly here to say that this gorgeous, 18-lunged-aged individual is a victim of his own demise. I think he’s just prey to a system that … he has a job because he’s told to. He’s making money because his identity and his value are wrapped up in these concepts. He’s desperate to stay young and pretty forever because he likely has never … Well, I don’t know. I think that that is a manufactured, emblematic existence of our American Western culture: youth, beauty, and money. So, he’s not a victim; I think he’s just prey to the incentive and reward structure that we inhabit.

Allison:

Yes. Thank you for clarifying. And pardon me for misspeaking or misquoting you. What’s interesting is to me, though, in addition to what you said, is that his 4 principles are to not die, which is what you hear of most when you hear or look into what he’s doing. The second one is don’t kill each other. The third is don’t destroy the planet. And the last one is don’t underestimate aligning with AI, which I think is interesting.

And so what I’m curious about is his principle to not destroy the planet. And one might argue that as a billionaire, if that was truly his principle and mission, that he could be doing some things differently with the resources that he has to not destroy the planet. Maybe he is; maybe I hadn’t found that. I did Google to see what kind of sustainability he was contributing to. Couldn’t find much, couldn’t find anything. So if it’s out there, and I haven’t found it, my apologies, but I didn’t see anything that he’s doing that supports that principle.

Ren:

Well, I mean, he’s investing in the biggest sustainability project ever. Life. No, yeah. I don’t know. It is interesting. I mean, he reminds me … it’s like the Bruce Wayne / Batman thing. He’s this uber-wealthy billionaire, and instead of spending his money on just feeding, like, a few thousand children every day and trying to build their neighborhood up to not be in food deserts, to have access to the stuff he’s talking about. Instead of creating infrastructure like that, he’s in his bat cave trying to get younger.

So there is an irony; but again, I think I have perspective, and maybe our job gives us that, is that I look at that and I shrug my shoulders. The realist in me goes, I can’t be angry at a man for doing exactly what he’s been trained and conditioned to do. And then maybe that’s sort of what the problem is that we started with is, you were fearful for working for him, is that doesn’t this perpetuate the kind of conditioning where we value eternal youth projects over making our neighborhoods safer?

Allison:

Right. Yeah. I mean, so I’m in Colorado Springs, and what immediately comes to mind is that the unhoused population here has grown significantly, continues to grow. And so, by Bryan Johnson’s MO, am I to tell somebody who is unhoused and struggling, to drink olive oil and take 61 pills and whatever, get a blood transfusion, which he did. He transfused some of his blood with his 17-year-old son, which I have a whole lot of questions about regardless. It’s irresponsible, in a way. And he’s very … again, I’m saying this as a fact, not as a judgment. By the way, clarifying. I’m not angry with him. I’m not angry at all. But he posits that everything that he does is very individual in nature.

So again, factually speaking, it’s centered on self. And I don’t mean self-centered in a judgment way. I just mean very literally it’s centered on you as an individual, where a lot of obstacles that people face that cause them to decline in health are systemic. And so, it’s just not accessible to people. It’s just not. And so I do, again, I understand the draw. I understand why he has this cult-like following, because he’s found the secret. He has. And if you don’t investigate how he’s gotten there, it’s very appealing. It’s very, very appealing. And have you heard much about his mini-mini-feud with Elon Musk? 

Ren:

No, I don’t think I have.

Allison:

Well, Elon Musk was criticizing him. This is a few years old now, but I thought it was just interesting, an interesting juxtaposition of 2 billionaires in how they approach things. Elon Musk was criticizing him, and he was asked what his response was with regard to the criticism. And Bryan Johnson said, the difference between me and Elon Musk, I will nourish you and drink your blood while he will fire you and leave you to die. So I thought that was an interesting statement to make. What’s your thought to that?

Ren:

I feel like Bryan’s right on time with any idea of if he’s a monster or a vampire. Probably not the best line though. I feel like vampires aren’t as popular as they used to be. Drink your blood. And I do remember you mentioning that phrase to me before, and now I think my second pass at it, maybe he means that he cares about you enough to consume your essence for his betterment. Surely that’s what he means.

Allison:

Surely, surely.

Ren:

That’s weird. That’s weird.

Allison:

I care about you so much, Ren, I want to drink your blood.

Ren:

Yeah, I don’t want to judge anybody, but that seems like a strange comment. Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe it’s the many shades of truth, because he’s not wrong. We’ve talked about the issues at Tesla and how that’s a lot of inhumane treatment. What’s more humane, someone trying to solve aging or someone who is going to fire you by a robot boss?

But I think, too, you highlighted … yeah, there might be a truth that he’s trying to do something that might make a difference for some people, that might change humanity, like he says. But for whom? You’re right about it. I think about Colorado Springs, and I think … I was just driving underneath our highway, I-25, and under the underpass turning onto it. And like in many major cities or nearly major cities, it’s a place where those who don’t have much find space to gather with one another.

And I think, yeah, what would it look like for me to walk over there and say, “Here’s a month of the Blueprint for free. In order to maintain it, though, you’ve gotta cobble together $1,500 a month going forward.” Who is going to live forever? If you’re listening right now, it’s like, if you’re the owner of your organization, they seem to be the prime candidates to access the Blueprint Protocol. And I’m like, what does it look like if our bosses never died? What kind of future does that have?

Allison:

That’s fair? Yes, that’s fair. And I just also want to highlight, again, some of the things he does, not in criticism, but just in fact so that people can understand. The amount of wealth that this man has affords him a lot of different things. For example, he goes to bed at 8:00 pm. I think he aims to sleep 9 hours a day, I think. If I’m mistaken on that, I apologize. But he does aim to really have good sleep hygiene, which is also something that we talk about in a much different way with regard to wellness and caring for oneself, right?

Sleep is important. We can all agree on that, but who has that access? And Bryan Johnson specifically, for a period of time, spent 30 minutes a day sitting on top of an electromagnetic machine to strengthen his pelvic floor, because his need to use the bathroom at night was interfering with his sleep. So I am only saying that because, A, I don’t even know if that works. But, B, also, just for the sake of us understanding … this contraption, and I quote, “feels like 2 small hands repeatedly punching you in the sensitive region in quick succession, typically for women who were hoping to rebuild strength after birth … Johnson wanted to use it to strengthen his pelvic floor to prevent himself from urinating frequently.”

Ren:

Sounds like he has a 56-year-old prostate. It seems like it’s not working that well for him.

Allison:

I mean, maybe. But the point is, what Bryan Johnson is doing is likely not accessible to most of us. And he has play money to … this might be something that works, it might be something that doesn’t work, who knows. But most of us are just trying to get our work done in time to eat dinner; to say hello to maybe our roommate, family, neighbors, whatever, what have you; get some fresh air; and hopefully get 6 hours of sleep. While, I think, what is it? 75% to 80% of leaders right now wake up in the middle of the night due to rumination from stress because of their jobs. So it’s just a little, a lot, unrealistic.

Ren:

Yeah. Well that last comment around waking up in the middle of the night about your job might be a different podcast, around self-importance and managing that. I think if anyone thinks they’re self-important, it’s Bryan. Bryan thinks he’s really important for humanity. I think leaders think they’re often too important for an organization that I think, you often aptly say, will very quickly think of them objectively, which is to say, they are just another piece of the machine.

And so I guess, then, my reaction that I’m starting to dig up here is this idea of, aren’t we just products of our environment? Aren’t we just continually doing the things that we think we ought to? Bryan Johnson and his pelvic floor stimulator … I feel like we’re going to get flagged for adult content here, but it’s like an impulse buy. It’s like you said, he’s got play money. He’s at the end of the counter. He just went to his $20,000 gene therapy, and they’re like, “Oh, hey, we also got this nice little other thing that punches you in the genitals very softly for a few minutes.” I’m like, all right. This guy’s like, “Sure, sounds interesting. I’ve been peeing in the middle of the night and I got to stop that.”

It’s like, but how driven is this guy? And now we dig into it. How driven is this guy at all by his own choices? That’d be really interesting. You know what I haven’t heard about? His therapy team. Where are the psychologists and other people that are talking to him about … why do you want this? And to what end? Yeah.

Allison:

“To what end” is interesting, too. But if I could, can I ask you to clarify, and you said this might be another podcast, but I want to clarify because I may have misunderstood what you were saying about self-importance and rumination somehow being parallel.

Ren:

Well, I think part of what I might see in professionals when they ruminate, which is to say, thinking over and over again about something negatively that kind of perpetuates more stress, is … a colleague of ours, Pete Ronayne in our Burn Bright resilience stuff, awesome guy, brilliant dude … And he said this thing to me that stuck with me forever. He’s like, “I’m going to go on vacation, and I’m not talking to anybody, and I’m going to challenge the myth of my own indispensability.” I think we look around, and we walk around, and we treat ourselves like, well what if I’m not here, what would happen? I kind of shrug my shoulders. Like, the exact same thing that happened before you were here.

So I think sometimes leaders get too wrapped up in their own role in things, and that’s part of what they ruminate about. And I think personally, self-importance is a hot button for me. It’s something that in personal and interpersonal and professional relationships, I know I lose some emotional regulation. And so when I see that, or see players like Bryan Johnson talking about, “I’m going to go to this island. That’s going to change humanity.” It’s like Oppenheimer and Truman talking about who changed the world. And how many millions of people have to die to prove it. It’s interesting. That one might be a bridge too far, but anyway.

Allison:

I bring that up, and I understand what you’re saying now. And I want to clarify for our listeners, too, that rumination does not always mean self-importance.

Ren:

No. Yeah, absolutely.

Allison:

And I’m only saying that because there are very severe mental health illnesses that cause rumination. Some of them not severe. Some people have OCD. Right? You can’t control your thoughts. I’m only saying that because I don’t want anyone to hear that if you can’t sleep at night and you ruminate, it means you’re self-important, which I know is not what you’re saying, Ren, but I don’t want you to be a soundbite. I know that’s not what you’re saying. Okay. But anyhow, I digress on that. Thanks for clarifying. And I want to come back to what you said too about earlier Bryan Johnson going to Honduras, was that right, for his —

Ren:

Yeah, it’s a small island off the coast.

Allison:

Whatever. I know where it is. Thank you.

Ren:

No, not Honduras. The island that he’s going to.

Allison:

Oh, okay. Thank you. So I read a little bit about that this morning. I think the first time we talked about Bryan Johnson, I don’t know if this is a new story. I don’t know, but I just became privy to that too. And what I thought was interesting too, again, perspective taking, right? This is a very important leadership skill, is the [ability] to look at all sides of things and take different perspectives, because people on this island are being displaced, and people on this island are calling it a billionaire’s playground, and resources are being taken. So again, you just had a quote that made me think of that, right? Because it’s to what cost?

The way that Bryan Johnson speaks, it seems genuine, and it does seem like he believes that he’s doing the right thing. It seems that way. However … consequences, right? There are consequences to your choices. And are you focused on you as an individual? Are you at all focused on the collective? Are you at all focused on humanity? Because there are costs to being so individualistic in nature, and one of them is the resources that he and, I suppose, other billionaires are taking from this island.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, it makes me want to dig in more into the organization that works there, and Lord knows why it’s just off the coast of some country like that, because of maybe regulations. But Minicircle, it does feel strange, about this group of oligarchs trying to find how to extend their existence. But some of what you made me think there is … so we talk about, is agency real? And we’ve talked about this before too. Is altruism real? Or does it matter if altruism is real? Does someone have to do something for altruistic means to then make a positive impact on the world?

And I guess I could see, in the potential or in the polarity of it all, that a synthesis of certain vitamins, minerals, diet that could indeed strengthen your eyes, your heart, your lungs, your liver. These are important human questions, especially in an American system where our diet is trying to kill us every day. That maybe if someone looked at that and said, I can’t do it all, but I could do that mushroom quinoa dish he does every day, that’s not impossible. And I always say, what if we make one impact on one person’s life, then we’re doing our job. And what if he changes one person’s life? Then would it be worth it? I don’t know.

Allison:

I don’t know either. Right? And I went down a rabbit hole too, which I’ll try not to take us down. But doing well, doing good for others, is also subjective. Bryan Johnson’s ideas started from a mission trip in which he was so inspired to revive humanity and save humanity, and his intentions sound lovely. And there’s criticism too. I want to be careful because this is not, I am not saying this, I am saying there’s wide criticism from some around mission trips as well, doing the opposite of what they intend to do. So it’s tricky. It’s just tricky. How do you navigate that? I don’t have the answer, but what I think is doing well, doing good might be different from you, Ren.

Ren:

Yeah, undoubtedly. And there might be moments where it happens to align perfectly, and then there might be moments where it doesn’t, and then all of a sudden we’re looking at each other baffled, like, I thought we were aligned utterly. Our values were so perfectly synced right there. And wasn’t it interesting, I think, I don’t know, how do you ground this conversation back into your lived experience, listener, whether you’re eating or pursuing your own eternal youth, or whether you’re just trying to work with someone who might be really self-important. But that’s an interesting question, Allison, around maybe just … and again, it’s like it’s a major theme for me, just investigating the righteousness of our own perspectives, but then also being willing to seek others so we can add to our perspective. 

Allison:

Yeah, it’s a tricky balance, polarity, whatever you’d like to call it. And I think if I could ground us in something tangible that leaders might take, it is around that perspective taking. I was struck by Bryan Johnson’s comment around, “I welcome these comments. It means that people care.” And I think he’s onto something there. Now I’m not talking about those folks who name-call and bully. That’s not what I’m talking about, especially on the interwebs. However, at the workplace, especially if you are a leader, stepping back and asking for feedback and taking perspective, and even for those of you who might have employees that tend to complain, there’s usually a request or something that’s cared about within that complaint.

And so I think it might be worth investigating, for you as a leader, to ask your teams, ask those who you manage, what’s not being said that we should talk about? Or what am I not considering here with this? What perspective do you have? Especially when we are in an environment right now where things are changing quickly and so fast that we often don’t even realize it. With AI, with supply chain, with global shakeups and global obstacles that are impacting our business, it is very important to be able to step back and take a perspective.

What might you leave our listeners with today, Ren?

Ren:

Well, it’s interesting. The pursuit of perspective … because it wraps me around, again, the agency conversation that we had. And one thing I didn’t say yet, and just a couple small quotes that really got my head spinning around in this documentary was, in summation, this guy and his editor went through the Blueprint Protocol for a month. They lost some weight, they got healthier. They were like, I could do some of this, though I couldn’t do all of it. But the reflection was like, what does it look like? What does the world look like when we make the best choices? What does it mean for our health or happiness when we’re no longer making decisions out of desperation or an impulse? Now even the richest man in the world, trying to be young, bought an impulse pelvic floor machine. I mean, maybe not impulse, but he seems pretty impulsive when you talk about it. He just goes to the next thing, like this could work, this could work.

I don’t know if any of us are free of desperation or impulse. And so maybe, if it’s not too esoteric for you, as you start to collect or try to keep perspective, try to log your feelings of desperation, try to log your feelings of impulse. Recognize and maybe put a little space between you and the lizard brain. Because I think so much of our reactions are … And, like rumination, it’s this flight-or-fight, it’s this animal response. I think that’s really what Bryan’s doing. It’s a long-term, animalistic reaction. “I don’t want to die. I want to stay together. I want to stay alive forever.” And so he’s like a fear-based animal almost, despite his calm response. And so even if you’re doing something perfect for yourself, maybe just log this idea of desperation, or impulse, or even frustration — if you can hear people walking around above me, I’m in my new studio, so. Just, you know, log what you’re feeling, and then move forward.

Allison:

Yes, and I’ll leave you with one comment that came from my social media, that I also think is a translation to leadership. Somebody commented when I asked, “Do you know who he is? What are your thoughts?” Someone commented, “I really like that he’s transparent about what he does, especially to his face and body. At least he is honest. So many people are not, and it makes the rest of us feel like we’re doing something wrong by not looking the way that he looks.” So transparency. Again, we’re talking about somebody who’s changing the way that he looks, which is different from leadership for the most part, but transparency and honesty will go a long way with those folks that you manage, I would presume.

So I think, Ren, this was an interesting conversation, and Bryan Johnson continues to evolve, and who knows what he might be up to next, what country he might be going to? I suppose we can maybe come back to him in a year and see what’s happening.

In the meantime, to our listeners, thanks for tuning in. Let us know what you think. What are your thoughts on Bryan Johnson? What do you think about his 4 principles? You can find us on LinkedIn. Let us know your thoughts. Let us know what you want us to talk about next. And a big thank you to our CCL team who works behind the scenes to get our podcasts up and running. One more thing to our listeners, you can find all of our episodes and show notes on ccl.org, and we will look forward to tuning in the next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks Allison. Thanks everybody. See you next time. Find Allison eternally young on TikTok.

Interview Transcript

INTRO: 

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That. We talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

It’s manager madness Allison, again, where we one by one discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top. Today, Beyoncé. That’s right, the Queen B herself. We’ll be spotlighting one of the most iconic figures in contemporary music in pop culture. From her early days as that powerhouse vocalist of Destiny’s Child to her unparalleled solo career, Beyoncé has consistently redefined the boundaries of artistry, entrepreneurship, and leadership.

Now, emerging onto the scene in the ’90s, Beyoncé quickly became a household name with Destiny’s Child, achieving massive success with hits like “Say my name, say my name.” Allison, you remember. Or, “I’m a survivor. I’m not going to” … Isn’t that wild? That just blows my mind. We’re probably going to get struck or bleeped because I’m such a good singer. But anyway. It’s really her solo career that catapulted her to superstardom.

With albums like Dangerously in Love, B’Day, and Lemonade, Beyonce has not only topped the charts, but she’s also cemented her status as a visionary artist, blending genres and pushing artistic boundaries, as most recently breaking records, as she seems to do all the time, with her latest single, Texas Hold ‘Em. The superstar is trying some new things, jumping into the country world headfirst. Even Dolly [Parton] noticed, saying, “I’m a big fan of Beyoncé and very excited that she’s done a country album. So, congratulations on your Billboard Hot Country number 1 single,” Parton wrote.

But past the music, Beyoncé’s leadership extends far beyond the stage. She has consistently used her platform to advocate for social justice, women’s empowerment, racial equality. And from her groundbreaking visual album Lemonade, which delved into themes of infidelity and forgiveness, Black womanhood, to her advocacy work with organizations like BeyGOOD, Beyoncé’s leadership style is characterized by authenticity, resilience, and commitment to using her influence for positive change.

So, as an artist, entrepreneur, and philanthropist, Beyoncé Knowles continues to inspire and lead by example, leaving an indelible mark on the music industry and beyond. So, welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington. As usual, joined with Allison Barr. Allison, if Beyoncé was your boss, what would you be excited about? What would you be worried about?

Allison:

I would like to first back up, because I did not know you were going to sing for us this morning, which I’m very grateful I had the opportunity to hear your solo.

Ren:

You’re welcome. 

Allison:

And I am a little bit disappointed you did not sing my favorite Beyoncé song, but that’s okay. I won’t lose too much sleep over it this evening.

Ren:

What’s the favorite song?

Allison:

Formation. Hands down. Formation. Do you know that one?

Ren:

I probably need someone to refresh my memory of what it sounds like, and that person might be you.

Allison:

Oh, I don’t think today is the day for that, but maybe some other time.

Ren:

You should have done it.

Allison:

You can give it a Google. But what I will tell you is that … what did I say? How old did I say I was in the last podcast? 26.

Ren:

I think we were in our 20s, I think, the last time.

Allison:

We were in our 20s. I was just a young teen when that song came out, and I used to practice the dance to it in my friend Stacey’s living room for hours and hours and hours. Anyhow, maybe towards the end, you can give us your personal rendition of that song, and we can go from there. But to answer your question. What would concern me and what would excite me if she was my leader? Is that the question? Those are the questions?

Ren:

Yeah. 2-parter.

Allison:

I’m digging here because what would make me nervous is that I have heard … so this is based on speculation only. I have heard that Beyoncé does not sleep much, and that she works more hours in a day than most people would comfortably, and can function very well on little sleep. I am not one of those people, so if my working hours were expected to be upwards of 12 hours consistently, I don’t think that that would be a good match for me. I don’t think I would produce my best work.

What would excite me is there are a lot of things that you’ve mentioned already around her innovation, her talent, but I think what excites me the most is a quote that I found from her, and that quote is, “I don’t like to gamble, but if there’s one thing I’m willing to bet on, it is myself.” And I really like that type of confidence in a leader. What about you?

Ren:

Yes. I don’t know. I’m wondering if I’m always going to be like, “the double-edged sword of their greatness is their greatest flaw,” but I probably would be really inspired by her doggedness, her drive, the way that she’s been able to maintain power and consistency. And that’s really interesting. That’s super inspirational. We’re going to be talking about a career that spans 30 years, really longer than that, because she’s been singing since she was a child, she was beating adults when she was 7 years old. But I think just her evolution and her consistency is really amazing.

I think one thing that I might be worried about, not knowing her at all, is I feel like she’s not only a sun, she’s a universe. And by the way, she’s married to another really prolific person who has, by the way, one of the most prolific businesses in their industry. And so, how do you not show up as a number in an organization and for a person who’s just got the world to consider?

So, I maybe get lost in the wash. I might worry that I would have to be inspired by her leadership, maybe not led directly by it.

Allison:

Did you say that you would worry about feeling like a number? Is that what you said?

Ren:

Yeah. I’m just maybe comparing that to anyone who’s listening who works in an organization that just has so many people that it’s impossible maybe to feel like, “Oh, we’re an organization of 20 people.” I don’t know if she treats people like numbers. But if I’m in an outfit, like think about a world tour, which has anywhere between 10 to 20 semi-trucks that follows her around. If you’re on that crew, there’s probably a lot of effort she’s got to put forth to make people feel welcome. And I imagine she does, but I’d be curious how much self-drive I would need to feel seen in a universe where I’m just a speck of dust.

Allison:

Is it important to you, in your work, that you have some connection to the CEO? We’ll assume that she’s the CEO. Is that important to you?

Ren:

That’s interesting. I like to think that I let people amplify me, and so I don’t need a CEO to inspire me. I find a lot of other drivers. I think you and I talked about this. I’m just excited about work. I like to do what I do. I’m trying to make a difference in this world. That inspires me. I don’t need someone else to do that for me. But if they were inspiring it, sure, it wouldn’t hurt. And so, I think working with people who seem just totally uninspired or disinterested in what we’re all here to do is boring. I don’t want to hear them speak. I just want to get to work. So I don’t know. That’s a pseudo-answer. Does it matter to you?

Allison:

That is a pseudo-answer. To have a connection to my CEO? I don’t think so. Well, I am baffled by my own question, because what do I mean by connection? We hear from our CEO, and I appreciate that. And I appreciate his candor and, to the extent that he can be straightforward, I appreciate that, but I don’t have a personal connection to him and that’s okay. I think what makes me feel like I’m not a number, I suppose, is the way the messaging is communicated. I suppose that’s important to me, more so than a personal connection.

Ren:

Probably what’s coming up for me is maybe the environment. I don’t need to be shaking or high-fiving my CEO’s hand. It’s not necessary. I do wonder, is there an environment that they create where the message reaches me and I believe it? But also, do I not see a message or hear something and go like, “Whatever, dude,” or “Whatever, dudette. You’re Beyoncé. What do you know about my trials or tribulations? I clean the bathrooms at the stadium.” I don’t think those people work for her team. That’s hyperbole.

But I think that’s probably the thing. How many things go unnoticed that perpetuate bad behaviors or negative impacts, like so many other organizations? Maybe that’s a good articulation of what I’d be worried about. I wouldn’t be worried about her. I’d be worried about … she’s so big, that the ecosystem around her is so massive, that maybe her truth and light doesn’t get into some of those dark corners of real business.

Allison:

That’s so interesting. I didn’t expect for us to take this route, but I’m going to keep going because it’s very interesting.

Ren:

Let’s do it. I like it. Yeah.

Allison:

What is the difference between a CEO of … we won’t use CCL because that’s too close to home. We’ll use a different organization. I don’t know, an organization of 1,000 people. And the CEO is a similar bright light, inspiring, et cetera. What makes their message hit into the dark corners, so to speak? What’s the difference? Do you know what I mean? How can a leader then reach those corners, regardless of size of organization?

Ren:

Regardless of size? Yeah. Something that’s big and important to me, I think, it’s always having … who’s telling your message the way you want your message told in rooms you’re not in? And so, I’ll often tell leaders … and you could even think about Beyoncé, Allison, and anyone who’s listening. She’s done a good job of creating a brand for herself. She has created a narrative and then put that narrative in the hands of people that she’ll never meet, who are singing her tune, pun intended.

And so, I guess that’s what I often tell young leaders is … you’re not going to be in every room. Not every person’s always going to hear what you care about, but what are you doing to make sure that your message is clear and that you’re giving it to the right people so they can carry it? I think for her, she’s got to hand it to people who are leading her armies to make sure they are shining the light in their parts of the organization.

I think it’s easier in a 1,000-part organization. Think of a bright star like Beyoncé, her light might shine bright enough to engulf 1,000 people. But an organization like one of the super houses that we know where there’s 800,000 employees, I don’t know how bright a light you can have that’s actually going to reach down there, especially if people below you are casting their own darkness and shadow because they aren’t bought into the message.

Allison:

Right. And that’s an interesting statement too, because if we think about those super organizations that are as big as you just mentioned, by technical standards, they’re very successful. I’m noodling on this a lot because how important … from a business, if we’re talking about business and not necessarily Beyoncé’s business, but to our leaders that we interact with … how important is that? I don’t know, to the success of a company. It’s important. You and I, I think, are aligned that it is important, but how important is it for the success of an organization overall? I don’t know the answer to that.

She’s incredibly business-savvy. She’s incredibly innovative. You already said this. She’s empowering. She’s decisive. She fired her manager of 15 years, I think that was in 2011, and then took full financial responsibility of her own business, businesses rather. And she’s been full steam ever since and probably before that too. So, she is incredibly decisive. And I wonder if someone like Beyoncé has such a clear standard for her businesses that there’s no questioning what behaviors are welcome and what are not.

Ren:

I always wonder, too, do you think that Beyoncé’s got leadership competencies that, if you get paid by Beyoncé, that you have to abide? Now, she does have an organization called BeyGOOD, and I want to talk about it a little bit. And that’s a charitable organization that just does immense things attached to her name, her image, her brand, her tours, from food to clothes donations to just helping young people experience music and art. I mean, talk about a way to funnel your energies. But I wonder, if you’re going on tour, do you like, “Look, okay, cool. We are courageous. And by that, we mean these 5 behaviors.”

That’s a curiosity. I do wonder, but go back to your success. It’s funny, I was writing this down because one of the first things I look for when we talk about these characters is their net worth, especially someone this big, according to Forbes in 2022, $450 million net worth, Beyoncé herself. And I think net worths are this weird, amorphous idea, but it conceptualizes maybe this idea that she’s a powerhouse, ranked 61st among America’s wealthiest self-made women by the same Forbes article.

But when I think about what is success, I probably go more towards her impact on society and her impact with BeyGOOD, less around her financial standard or capabilities. Because that brings into a larger conversation, that I don’t know if you and I will ever get that episode to air, around what societal structures we need to be engaging in to make the world a better place. Anywho, I don’t know.

I think probably like, to success, let’s go with BeyGOOD. And I wonder, can Beyoncé articulate the behaviors that she wants to be around that amplify her leadership, that enable other people to lead like her? That’d be cool. I’d like to ask that.

Allison:

Yeah, it’s so tough, too, because when we talk about Beyoncé, we’re talking about an entertainer and businesswoman and innovator and … There’s so much to say about her that is innately inspiring, and I think that people would naturally follow her regardless. Honestly, I think people look up to her, like a lot of other entertainers and business people. But I think to your point, she’s also done a lot of good for society and people who are underprivileged. So I think there are some natural qualities that she has, that people would naturally try to emulate, that we may or may not see in the general workplace. Some of us might, but I don’t know that it’s as common.

She’s a human. I’m sure she has her pitfalls as well. But what stands out to me about her, and what I’ve read about her, is her savviness and her innovation. Like you said, she’s been in the business for 20-plus years, in the entertainment business that is, and her style never gets old. And that’s because she frequently reinvents herself. I don’t know if anyone’s coaching her on that. I have no idea. I would imagine she has a powerhouse team as well. But from what I understand, she drives most of those decisions.

If we’re linking that to the general work worlds, it is important to have some foundation on your, dare I say “product” or your brand, but also be able to reinvent frequently, which is a hard balance for organizations.

Ren:

Yeah, I remember when she left Destiny’s Child, it was like … people rarely succeed when they’d go on solo careers after leaving their bands. And I think you see that in music, but music’s also so finicky. I think there’s something there. Something too, though, that you said earlier around this idea of emulation. I wondered and I guess … you said, talking to you about a team that she has around, or how she maybe manicures her reputation … I guess when you have to manicure your public image and you are Beyoncé, so your public image is you’re a world figure, you’re known, then there’s a lot of behaviors to emulate.

But let’s take any CEO that you can think of. Are they as visible for behaviors to emulate? If someone is a bright light, but they’re not giving examples for it, then are they going to create that natural followship that Beyoncé will? And then, too, I mean, we talk about the complexities of humans. We know that Beyoncé is a human and that she’s not perfect. It’s like that old adage, never meet your heroes, because you find out that oh crap, they’re a miserable human being just like me.

Inevitably, all that glitters won’t be gold, and Beyoncé will have a bad day as a mother and as a business woman and as an entertainer, and she might let that spill out onto the people around her. And then, that might even be harder to take because she’s been deified. A couple of ideas there, but maybe what do you say to a CEO who’s not got as much visibility there, or how would you react to that?

Because I think people can emulate her, but only because she’s on the highest stage in the world. How do other leaders create an environment for emulation?

Allison:

That’s a tricky question because Beyoncé originally, by trade, is an entertainer and CEOs are not. I wouldn’t expect my CEO to entertain me though. It would be amazing and hilarious if they did. But that’s not my expectation, and the clarity that I have on what I’m expected to do at the workplace, I’m clear on that. I think you and I have unique careers and unique jobs because the inspiration … I won’t speak for you, but I’m curious what your thoughts are.

The inspiration that I gain at work mostly, not holistically, but mostly comes from being in the classroom with clients. It is so engaging and inspiring to me and life-giving. I don’t seek that inspiration from my CEO necessarily. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah, I think we mentioned this earlier around having personal pride or a personal mission. And I think that’s why you and I have often said, and I’ll say it again, everyone … My wife and I just did a values exercise, Heather. I want to stop calling her my wife …

Another departure. I was with a colleague of mine, and he continued to refer to his wife by her first name. And I kept on saying to myself, “Who is this person he’s speaking about?” He was talking to other people, and I thought, “What an interesting intention.” I haven’t asked him about it, but Harrison, shout out, you’re a great guy. He’s a really thoughtful, grounded person. And I was thinking to myself, “It’s interesting how we identify these people by titles.” And then, I was also thinking to myself though, “Well, maybe it’s because I’m a private person and you don’t need to know what my wife’s name is.” But you do know my wife’s name, and all of you are engaging in parasocial relationship with me anyway. So, my wife’s name is Heather. We’re public figures. Sure, whatever. Thanks for that departure.

Heather and I were doing values exercises, and a new value rose of the surface for me, which was self-respect. And one of the first ideas around self-respect was self-acceptance, being proud of yourself. And I think naturally, in order for self-acceptance to come, I think you’ve got to have self-awareness, like what makes you proud of yourself?

I’m not perfect. I have loads of work to do, but I would say that, yeah, you and I probably have worked to synthesize what we find pride and joy in, and then we don’t need anyone else shining that light for us. And I think I agree with you. But when I wonder about someone who’s less clear, or who might need some guidance, I wondered … you said CEOs aren’t an entertainer.

Well, what is a CEO? Because I think sometimes the CEO can inspire apathy or excitement, and I’d rather them inspire something than nothing. And so, if I have a CEO message where I’m like, ugh, then that might just be enough to make me look for someone else.

Allison:

Again, it’s a tricky question, because it depends on who you ask and, perhaps, what you value, maybe? CEOs, by trade, oversee organizations. Based on my position where I am right now, I don’t directly report to the CEO. I’m not even in the same geographic location. I’ve had some interaction. I’ve been lucky to meet CEOs in my past careers prior to CCL, of course. And again, I don’t want to overuse the word inspiration, my drive, my excitement around coming to work had a lot more to do with my colleagues and the work that I was actually doing versus my CEO.

I’ll share with you that one of my best friends and I were having a similar conversation. I won’t say where she works, but it is a larger organization and well-known. And the CEO is less than inspiring, and that’s important to her. We had a conversation about it. One of the questions I asked her is, what is the CEO’s responsibility to you feeling engaged at work? Is it your manager? Whose responsibility is that? Whose responsibility is it that you feel engaged at work? That’s rhetorical, unless you have an answer to that, Ren.

Ren:

All of us. I am of the extreme ownership, like personal accountability standpoint, so me, I have no one else to blame about anything in my life other than me. I create the realities I’m a part of. But in reality, I also cannot ask an individual to say … like, people have the right to ask for things, just as I have the right to not ask for them. We talk to leaders all the time where we’re like, “Can you teach a sense of urgency?” And I work with a whole bunch of really smart, driven people who will look at me and just shrug their shoulders and say they don’t get it. They think it’s an overabundance of nature versus nurture.

And I guess what I’m trying to explore right now is, what are those nurturing aspects? A question that we’ll ask for all of our leaders, and I’ll ask you this now, would you want Beyoncé to be your leader, or would you want Beyoncé as your leader?

Allison:

Would I? Yeah, in a heartbeat. What I’m pulling into that too though, is the assumption that I would also be working … well, how many businesses does she own now?

Ren:

You can almost pick which one you’d want to work for.

Allison:

Yeah. Who knows? If it was in the entertainment industry, maybe not, because that industry is rough. And again, I value my discretional time. I value my relationships, my personal relationships, now more than ever. If it was the entertainment industry, maybe not, but if it was one of the others, sure.

Ren:

Because you think that it would provide for you the things that you value, discretionary time, time with colleagues?

Allison:

I think so. I’m just riffing here because I don’t know. We’ve got to talk about what position I have and all of that. If it were something in leadership development, organizational development, people development, then yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ren:

Well, let’s chase a rabbit that we were talking about earlier, and we were talking about the CEO. Do they need to keep you inspired? Let’s say you had to work for her, Beyoncé, in the entertainment industry, like something you’re unfamiliar with, where you aren’t naturally driven by, like where you right now said, “Okay, you’re making a switch.” Tomorrow, you’ve got to go close business, and you may not have the time to switch your heuristic of “I’ve got pride in myself in the work that I do here.” What would keep you in that job? And would she have a part in it?

Allison:

What would keep me in the music industry?

Ren:

Yeah. The part of the thing that you were reticent to join. You’d have to work for Beyoncé, but it wouldn’t for BeyGOOD, her charitable organization as her L&D director. It would be in her entertainment and touring industry as, I don’t know, something not glamorous.

Allison:

Something not glamorous. I don’t know. I feel like this is a hard question because I need more details.

Ren:

But why do you need more details?

Allison:

I can tell you … I mean, because —

Ren:

Because you’re trying to create an environment that you would be satisfied with, that doesn’t involve your CEO creating an environment that you’ll be satisfied with?

Allison:

Well, I think because what I value, my values as such as they pertain to the workplace, vary slightly. So, the work that I do now, the actual work that I’m responsible for, I mean the things that I produce, I very much enjoy it. I am very much interested in it. I believe in it. I like sharing it with others. I think it’s valuable and important. Have I worked a job, though, where I didn’t feel that and been happy? Yes, because I had my other values met.

And the thing is, music is a very big part of my life. I love music. There’s a guitar sitting to my right and a piano sitting to my left. Am I Beyoncé? No. Would I have some pride working in the music entertainment industry? Yes. And from what I hear and understand, it’s a no-sleep type of industry. And that does not appeal to me.

Ren:

Is there anything that Beyoncé could do with her leadership behaviors or style that could make that more appealing to you?

Allison:

Yeah, if I had just regular normal working hours, yeah, I’d be okay with that.

Ren:

The thing that Beyoncé could do for you from a behavioral standpoint would be shift your schedule. That’s what you’re saying, which is fine. I like it. But that’s what you’re saying.

Allison:

We’re talking about something that’s out there in the ether. I don’t even know what my job is at this point. So again, I would —

Ren:

Yeah, it’s a hypothetical.

Allison:

I’d probably need some more information. But if you’re trying to get me to investigate — what are you trying to get me — what’s the bottom line here?

Ren:

Well, we’re asking would you want to work for Beyoncé. And the answer is yes. And if it’s yes, well, why would it be? I’d say yes too, but probably because she’s so wealthy that if I’m on tour, I’m probably getting a nice bonus. But is that why I want to work for a person, or do I want to work for a person because they have clarity of vision, or they’re able to communicate that sense to me, or they get my discretionary effort function? If you’d say yes to her, would you say yes to her in a job that you hated? And if so, why? What about her characteristics would keep you there?

I think, too, it’s attached to the thing we were talking about. Do you need a CEO to inspire you to work there? Well, no, but you and I have the luxury of choice. What if you don’t have the choice? What if your only option is working in an environment and in a workspace where you’re uninspired and maybe not even treated that well, what behaviors could we take from Beyoncé to change that environment?

Or if you were in a crappy situation as a tour manager, as one of the tour managers in Beyoncé’s entertainment circle, what characteristics do you think would inspire you to do that job that maybe you’re a little unfamiliar with in an industry that you’re not super excited about? What characteristics would you say, “Yeah, I want Beyoncé  to be my leader?” I mean, I know we don’t know her.

Allison:

Can we flip this? Because I am curious what you would say.

Ren:

Would I want Beyoncé to be my leader personally? From what I know about Beyoncé, would I be satisfied to work for her? I think I would, despite the fear or apprehension of maybe getting lost in the system, because the truth of the matter is you’re all numbers anyway. No, I think that the world does not care. So, instead, I attach myself to the things that she cares about. I think a lot of our work out there, and if you’re listening and you hate your job, make part of your job finding your next job.

And so, I probably want to work for Beyoncé and move my way into the BeyGOOD foundation, do something in that organization. So sure, I’d probably want to work for her for the potential that her universe has created, even if she never knows who I am. Flip success!

Allison:

And I’m going to share my unpopular … maybe, I think it’s unpopular opinion, it might not be. And then, I want to hear more about your draw towards her BeyGOOD foundation.

Ren:

For sure.

Allison:

Sometimes I think that we expect too much from workplaces. I am not saying that we should accept hostile treatment, so please do not make me a soundbite. That’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is that I was hired to do a job, and I go to work, and I do that job, and I do my best, and I make mistakes sometimes, and those things happen. And … to your point, right now, I do have the luxury of choice and not everybody does. And that might be a separate conversation. But my point is there are so many articles out there, and so many things that we talk about, with regard to the workplace almost being everything to people. That’s impossible. It’s impossible.

You cannot please everybody, because people are different. People value different things. I don’t know if that’s a polarity. It feels like there’s a polarity in there somewhere. But workplaces cannot be the be-all for everybody. It is absolutely impossible. Curious what your reaction is to that.

Ren:

Well, it reminds me of a conversation we’ve had before, where we were talking about work from home and building community. I think what I’m hearing from you is that our frame of reference around the workplace might need to shift. And we might be looking for too many things, especially as it relates to self-respect, or self-acceptance, or self-satisfaction. If we’re waiting for our boss or our workspace to satisfy us, then you’re going to be waiting. You need to be cultivating that garden on your own. So I think I hear what you’re saying from that standpoint.

I think it’s probably a bigger picture, though, when we [think] about what matters for success. I think, for what matters for success now, if we’re tracking financial outcomes, then sure, these things are probably irrelevant. We’re probably looking for the wrong things in the wrong places. But if we were to shift the conversation of what success looks like … where we weren’t talking about money earned, but maybe money spent on feeding people, that’d be an interesting cultural conversation as a world.

And so, I think maybe you’re right, we are seeking too much from the world today, but I want more than just being hired to do a job and then do that job around people who I can tolerate. Not saying that’s what you’re saying, but I think maybe —

Allison:

Yeah, that is not what I’m saying.

Ren:

No, that’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying. I think that I want more. I want something different. And maybe that’s why I’m drawn to her BeyGOOD, because she’s a prolific businesswoman who’s got a lot of business functions, of business units rather, different arms of that $450 million empire. But the part that I am most inspired by is the part of her that’s using her name and her light to give back to others. So, I don’t know where we wind it, or how we got to this one necessarily. I guess maybe answering would I want her to be my boss, yeah. And it wouldn’t be bad to get a bonus, because I bet she bonuses her people fat.

Allison:

Maybe, right?

Ren:

I bet on the tour they get a good bonus.

Allison:

It sounds to me like you’re drawn to the mission of her foundation and the work that they contribute to society. And let’s be real. If I worked for Beyoncé, and on the entertainment side, it’s unlikely, though it pains me to say this, it’s unlikely that I would be hanging out with Beyoncé on a daily basis, which to me would be very intriguing. It’s more likely that I would be, I don’t know, managing some of her people or something. If we try to translate my role to her world, which I don’t know that we can, but I’m going to try, it’s unlikely that I would have any sort of connection to her directly.

But I still would find it to be really unique and interesting to be part of what she is contributing. It may be another podcast. But music is very important to me, and I do think it’s important to the world. When things are hard for people, they generally turn to art in some form, and music is one of those things. So. All that to say, yes, I would work for Beyoncé in a heartbeat.

Ren:

To be around the positivity that she brings. And I think that’s something, too, that we can agree on. And I just saw something that I wanted to ask, just to poke the bear a little bit, which is to say, I’m keen to hear your perspective on her, like early in her career, she dealt with a lot of things like Ban Bossy versus Embrace Bossy. Or is she like many young women in a patriarchal society, where if sex sells, they abide by the business that mandates how they make progress. And then, people are like, “You’re not a good role model.”

We’re rounding up towards maybe the end of the show. I don’t know if there’s a quick answer to how do we reconcile our puritanical prudishness with people’s ability to be role models, but maybe that’s a different episode. I don’t know. Do you have a quick answer to that?

Allison:

Well, can you ask me —

Ren:

Because I don’t have any problem with her dress. Yeah, it was like —

Allison:

Well, let me pause you right there. Whether or not you have a problem with her dress is irrelevant. And I appreciate —

Ren:

Well, I don’t think so.

Allison:

Here’s why. Well, there’s a lot of reasons why. You asked if I have an easy answer and I do not. Maybe we could … I don’t know. Let me just say what immediately comes to mind is that she’s … well, I’m making some assumptions here, so allow me. She’s being herself. If she’s wearing a crop top and a short skirt, okay. If you can’t help but stare at her, not you, I mean the general you, that is a you problem and you are objectifying her. I appreciate that she is who she is. I think it’s a much bigger conversation. And her being a role model, I mean, you brought up patriarchy and … you didn’t say feminism, but I’m bringing that up.

The “new wave of feminism” is that women do what they do for them, and are not necessarily making choices based on what you think. So, if she wants to not shave her legs for the rest of her life, okay. Do you know how people would lose their minds if that happened? When we’re talking about her being a role model, look at what she’s accomplished as a business person versus what she looks like. What she looks like is irrelevant.

Ren:

Well, and that’s exact … I couldn’t agree with you more. Absolutely. I think it’s just a nuisance when people will juxtapose her physical appearance to her capabilities or anything like that. And when I think about people being who they are, I start to think about, well, what subconscious things are we modeling around who we are supposed to be anyway, but another massive conversation. So, yeah, I think you —

Allison:

You’re hitting deep questions here.

Ren:

They’re all deep. We’re all doing the work. This is going to be a spicy, fun year, everybody. And I think maybe that’s, too, if we start to finish, I think something about Beyoncé that I might … one thing that she does that I would do, a couple of things maybe. I think it’s clear that she’s been able to explore herself and do some work. I think you’re not this successful for this long if you’re also not doing that growth to withstand all of the crap. So I think whatever she’s doing, I’d love to hear how she continues to make peace with herself and the world around her.

And maybe, too, I’m reminded of her alter ego, Sasha Fierce, when she was younger. It’s so amazing, all of us, every profession, like all these really super proficient people at one point or another have dealt with imposter syndrome. You’re not alone out there if you’re feeling like you don’t belong. Because Beyoncé didn’t think she belonged. She had to create an alter ego to get out there. I was like, “I love that. Do whatever you got to do to put yourself out there.” Because your brain does not know the difference.

So, whether you’re Sasha Fierce or Beyoncé Knowles, when you’re doing the thing that you’re scared to do, you start to build the ability to withstand your fear and get better at it. So, I think, yeah, we agree. I like Beyoncé. I think she’s a role model. I’d be glad to have her as a role model and a role model for my people.

Allison:

Well, I think the next episode, I won’t make you answer it now, but next episode, you’re going to have to share with us what your alter ego is. What is Ren’s Sasha Fierce?

Ren:

I’ll have to really think of that.

Allison:

And I agree with everything that you said, and will add that, from a business perspective, I think what our leaders can think about is how she really continues to improve over time, while still she really does meet the needs of her audience, so to speak. And if you think about business, very simplified, very, very simplified, a business standard is to move an idea into a product or to create a product for your audience, for your consumer. And competitors might create or try to create a similar product to her in response to her success. However, there’s no other artist in her genre that even comes close to mimicking her style with success.

She remains very true to her core offering, if you will. So, I think she does a really good job of leveraging tradition and innovation, leveraging who she is and what her core offerings are, and also leveraging innovation to your very earlier point, creating some country tracks. She’s still Beyoncé and has found a way to innovate and still remain who she is. And that is a business challenge that I think a lot of businesses face. So, that would be one of my key takeaways for her.

Ren:

Yeah, I love that. Be like the both / and versus the either / or. She’s like the both / and. And that’s really cool.

Allison:

Yeah. Ren, before we close for the day, are you sure you don’t want to give us one more solo? Perhaps your new song.

Ren:

(singing) “If you like it then you better put a ring on it …” And every time I hear someone say left, I always like, “To the left, to the left.” I’m not in the Beyhive. I can’t even front.

Allison:

I think you might be. I think you might be.

Ren:

You’re welcome, everybody. You owe me.

Allison:

Yes. Well, thank you, Ren, for the solo, and for your artistry ,and for the great conversation today. We’ll look to hear about your alter ego in our next episode. And to our listeners, let us know what you think. Are you part of the Beyhive? What do you like about Beyoncé? Would you want to work for her? And we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. As always, you can find our show notes and all of the links to our podcast on ccl.org. Big thank you to Ryan and Crystal and the entire CCL team that makes our podcast happen, and we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, everyone.

Ren:

Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Allison. See you next time. Find Allison on TikTok.

Interview Transcript

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That. We talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership. It’s manager madness, Allison. That’s right. Where we, one by one, discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

Ren:

Today, Coco Gauff. Now Cori Gauff, or Coco, is an American professional tennis player who burst onto the international scene at 15 years old. Then, in a stunning upset, Coco defeated her idol, Venus Williams, in the first round at Wimbledon, making her the first young player, or rather the youngest player since 1991, to win a main draw match at Wimbledon.

While she didn’t win that tournament, that was just the beginning. At 19, Coco was already a US Open veteran, but during her fifth trip, she won that Grand Slam title.

She’s won a singles title in the World Tennis Association. She’s also achieved doubles success, winning 2 Grand Slam titles in mixed doubles.

Known for her aggressive baseline play, athleticism, and mental strength, Gauff has been hailed as one of the brightest young tennis players around and is the future for American tennis.

Off the court too, Gauff is an advocate for social justice and has often used her platform to speak out against racial inequality, police brutality. She’s vocal about her support for [the] Black Lives Matter movement. And Gauff’s maturity, both as an athlete and an activist, has made her a young role model for many aspiring people around the world.

So, welcome back everyone, or for the first time, if this is the first time you’re coming. My name is Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr.

Allison, in a word or 2, if Coco was your boss, what would you be excited about, and what would you be worried about?

Allison:

In a word or 2, I would be excited about her composure under incredible amounts of pressure. She’s very composed, and there are a few other things. I’ll pause until we get into those. So, that would be the first thing I would be excited about. I cannot think of anything that I would be worried about. What about you?

Ren:

You wouldn’t be worried about anything. She’s so perfect. You wouldn’t be worried about —

Allison:

I didn’t say she was perfect, but —

Ren:

You just can’t think of something that would be.

Allison:

Well, my boss is also not perfect, but I don’t worry. I’m not worried.

Ren:

Ah. So, we’re already getting into it, everyone. So, wait. Hold on. Is this because of your personality, you just don’t get worried, therefore, worry does not exist in your lexicon?

Allison:

No, no. Let it be known that I actually score as a worrier.

Ren:

Oh, you do?

Allison:

Oh, yes. I don’t worry about other people’s behavior, necessarily. It’s more my own.

Ren:

Okay. Interesting. So, what do you think that she might do that would worry you about your own behavior?

Allison:

Oh, my gosh.

Ren:

… treat you like a hostile witness, over here.

Allison:

Welcome to therapy with Ren and Allison.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Ask me that question again. What do I think she would –

Ren:

Well, I’m just really trying to prime you.

Allison:

Okay, okay.

Ren:

If you had to say it, if you had to tell me, one thing that could possibly worry you. Something that she did that would make you worry about your own self. What would that be?

Allison:

I would worry if I could meet the expectations.

Ren:

Ah. That you put on yourself about being around such greatness.

Allison:

Yes. Like, “Could I possibly meet the standards she sets for herself?” I don’t know. Would she set those for her team? I have no idea … We could get into a rabbit hole here, but I would like you to also answer the same questions that you asked me.

Ren:

Well, you’ll get your wish. But, thank you. I think that’s a very valid and useful question when we ask leaders, sometimes, “What would worry you about that person?” Yeah. I’d be worried that I couldn’t live up to the expectation that they set for themselves. I often caution leaders about not using your own expectations for others. So, yes. There is something there.

Let’s see. What would I be excited about? Gosh, seeing the world through the eyes of a young success. So maybe, young success are my 2 words. What would I be worried about? Young success. That’s also the thing that might make me most cautious.

Allison:

Say more about that.

Ren:

I think this might come up more later when we talk about, “Would we want to work for this person, or would we want this person as our leader?” Like strengths overplayed, potential shadow sides …

A lot of times if you have experience, or experience success early, sometimes the biggest killer for success is a failure to adapt from what gave you success. So, reasonably, I could look at someone who’s had to deal with older people telling her what to do her whole life. She could look back and say, “What the hell do you know? I’m a pro. I’m one of the best in the world, and I’m 19.”

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

That person may very well be clouded by, rightfully so, their perfection, their own expectations, and maybe not give me space, or themselves, space to grow.

Allison:

Interesting. When she won the US Open last year, she beat the number 1 seed, Sabalenka, at age 19. She’ll be 20 in March, I believe. So, she’s 19 years old.

What makes me curious about what you said, is her response after she won — was immense gratitude, not only for her own team and her parents of course, and those who support her directly, but for people who indirectly support her. That’s sort of what also got me excited to talk about her, too. She just won one of the biggest tennis tournaments in the world.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Again, at age 19 years old. How would you have responded, do you think, at age 19? If you think about Ren, as Ren was at age 19. For your own sport, winning the biggest tournament in the world, in your own country where people are rooting you on, wholeheartedly. You’re asked to talk about that. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

19-year-old Ren, how would that go?

Ren:

Did you see Travis Kelce —

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

— after the Super Bowl, in his speech when he was —

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

— on stage?

Allison:

Yes. I —

Ren:

Like that, but worse. A much, much worse version.

Allison:

Wait. How worse? I need to know worse.

Ren:

I don’t know. I mean, are you asking me, “Ren, do you think you have the composure that Coco Gauff does?” I don’t know if I have the composure, still, that Coco Gauff does.

Now, it does remind me of the good people she must surround herself with. So, I guess you’re saying that, maybe, my fears of her youth are misplaced?

Allison:

Well, just curious. Right? I’m sure she gets media training because they all do, I’m sure. But somebody like Ben Shelton, if you don’t know who that is, Google him.

Ren:

I don’t.

Allison:

I think he’s, maybe, around the same age, and I think he’s got the fastest serve on the men’s side. He’s up and coming. He hasn’t won any Grand Slams, yet. Anyhow, regardless. Different person. But his response is, one might say, a little bit overconfident in comparison, for somebody who has never won a Slam. Right?

Where Coco Gauff, in her press conferences, was thanking the camera crew, the ball kids, the tournament director, all of the people who put the tournament together. I’ll quote her because this is her language, not mine. She thanked her “haters for driving her.” My point is that she took the time to think about all of the people that come together to make the tournament happen in the first place. Without any of them, she knows that her success, it just wouldn’t have happened.

Ren:

So to juxtapose, who’s this Ben guy? What’s his name?

Allison:

Ben Shelton. I’m sorry, Ben.

Ren:

Ben Shelton.

Allison:

Yeah. I like you, Ben.

Ren:

You’re getting flamed, Ben. No. It’s okay. So, he’s a little cocky. So maybe in the true spirit of SBI — Situation, Behavior, Impact — what indicates to you his cockiness or arrogance? Because I think we heard something that is meaningful for you for Coco, which is maybe the demonstrated humility by talking about how grateful she is and how thankful she is. I didn’t see Ben. I think he got to the semis this year. Right? Or something like that. I don’t even know how well he performed.

Allison:

Yeah. Quarters or semis. So, I also want to acknowledge that I know there’s part of sports psychology where you have to hype yourself up. I get that. I understand that.

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

Especially, when you’re an individual playing against another individual. You don’t have a team to hype you up. I know there’s part of psychology around this. Again, he has one of the biggest serves in tennis, ever. It’s ridiculous. If you haven’t seen it, you should look. I think his speeds are up to 140 miles an hour, or more than that. It’s unbelievable.

Ren:

That’s fun. That’s dangerous. It’s scary.

Allison:

Yeah. So his celebration, I’m going to try to describe it, but I can show you, Ren, as we’re here. Any time he would do something well, he would act like he was answering the phone, put his hand up to his ear. Then, slam it as if he was just … Which I don’t really understand what that means, anyhow. That was his little celebratory, “In your face, Ren. I just aced you for the 10th time in a row.”

Ren:

Okay. Yeah.

Allison:

Whatever that is. He got absolutely annihilated by Novak Djokovic, who’s the number 1 seed of course, and did that a couple times in that match. I’m like, “Is this really … You know? You’re kind of getting schooled here. Is this time for you to be hanging up your banana phone,” or whatever?

Ren:

That’s funny. I just watched it. I think he’s probably like, “Who? I can’t hear you anymore.” He’s hanging up on his haters, too.

Allison:

Oh.

Ren:

It’s probably —

Allison:

Is that what that means? Okay.

Ren:

I have no idea. That’s just my quick assessment. But, you’re saying it’s not like grace under fire or generosity. Then, the worst is when someone’s braggadocious, and then they get crushed by the best tennis player around.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

You’re like, “Well, there you go, kid.”

Allison:

To which Djokovic, rightfully, did right back at him after he won. Which, you know? The little tension on the sports, I’m here for it.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

But my point is, then you listen to that press conference versus a press conference by somebody who just won the whole tournament at age 19 —

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

— won the whole thing, the entire thing, who was expressing so much gratitude to the people who helped her to get there.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So, my SBI to her, then, is when you expressed gratitude towards literally everybody she could possibly think of in her life, directly or indirectly, I felt inspired by that.

Ren:

Same. Yeah. Admittedly, I mean, we’re going to be talking about the most elite, most amazing people on the planet.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

So obviously, she’s incredibly special. You don’t have that kind of success at being that special. So, any nitpicking I might do is just in service of that. But, I do wonder. Maybe, this is part of this question around would I want this person as my leader, is the exploration of even the most advanced youth?

Let’s take Coco now. Coco at 29, would she look backward and be … I can only imagine that Coco is going to be more mature, more advanced than she is now, in 10 years, simply because she’s demonstrated her willingness to work on herself so much today. So maybe, that’s the paradigm that I’m tapping at. Well, let me ask you a question. Would you want to have Coco be your leader, knowing that you’d be worried about living up to her expectations?

Allison:

Yes. Because I appreciate when people push the limits of what I think I’m capable of.

Ren:

Could she even conceptualize it at 19?

Allison:

Conceptualize what?

Ren:

The limits of your capabilities.

Allison:

What’s driving that question?

Ren:

I mean, just biochemically, her brain literally isn’t finished forming, yet. So, some of the connections that she might need to ethereally think big enough about your capabilities, she may not even have the language to do so. When we talk capabilities, could she think that you’d crush that Excel spreadsheet? Or, would she think like me, the capabilities, Allison, that you might have on changing the world, 3 legacies down, by someone you had a conversation with in a program? Would she even be able to conceptualize that as a start point for capability development?

Allison:

Well, you raise an interesting question. So, a couple of things. The first thing that comes to mind is that she is ranked, with her partner, number 1 in doubles. They’re ranked number 1. That is in the world, by the way. And so —

Ren:

Is it mixed doubles, too, or —

Allison:

Ooh. Oh, that’s a good question actually —

Ren:

Because she’s got a mixed doubles title. That’s important, listeners, because the mix is the men and women playing together. Just again, talks about her general prowess, I would say. But —

Allison:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ren:

Sorry. Go ahead.

Allison:

That’s okay. Any time you’re working in a partnership with somebody to achieve a goal, regardless if it’s tennis or a podcast or something else, building a house, whatever, to work effectively with somebody else, it’s helpful to be able to acknowledge what their strengths are, give some encouragement when needed, push a little when necessary. I would be hard-pressed to believe that they don’t do that with each other.

So, yes. I think she would be capable. Now, let’s be real. She’s a tennis expert. You and I work in leadership development. So, am I to assume that she’s an expert in leadership development for the sake of this conversation?

Ren:

Well, you raise an interesting point because are we going to be direct, or not? I think we can do both. We often have clients who have to work for someone who’s out of industry. We often hear about that. Right? Organizations will hire us and they’ll be like, “Yo.” Everyone’s homegrown. We’re hiring someone new. They don’t work in the industry, they’re brand new. We have to teach people or help them understand how to overcome their reticence to engage them. We got to teach this other person to embed themselves in a way that matters. So, I don’t know. Whatever’s useful for your conversation, maybe both. Maybe, she doesn’t and she does.

Allison:

Well, her age doesn’t concern me because I’ve met 65-year-old leaders who cannot do it either. So to answer that question directly, given her career thus far, her age does not concern me.

Ren:

I’m not concerned by her age. I’m not —

Allison:

You directly mentioned her age.

Ren:

Because I’m corresponding her biological age to her physical development of her brain. Now, you and I get to debate psychologically or philosophically whether a fully developed brain leads to fully developed thoughts or fully developed humanity. Now, chuckle, ha, ha. Fully developed humanity, does that take 65 years or hundreds of years and many circles around the sun? These are the things that I’m ultimately exploring. Do I think 29-year-old Coco Gauff would be better than 19-year-old Coco Gauff at leading me, or leadership? I might bet on it.

Allison:

Yeah. You might be right. You might be wrong. You might be right. There’s no way I would turn down that opportunity.

Ren:

Just to work for her, or with her.

Allison:

Yes. Correct. To bring up another example. I don’t know how much you watch tennis, Ren, or our listeners. There are some tennis players who are very famous and well-known, who make spectacles when they’re in frustration on the tennis court. I mean, swearing at the umpire, in really hostile ways.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Crushing their rackets, throwing adult temper tantrums. This is somebody who played a match at the US Open. I can’t remember if it was the quarterfinals. It was prior to the semis. Played a German woman who constantly violated the rules. I don’t know if you read about this, Ren. The umpire was not calling any sort of violation for her opponent for violating the rules, time and time and time again. And, Coco Gauff’s response to that was what you would want it to be when there’s a little bit of volatility at the workplace. Right? Calm under pressure, facts. Factually, this is what has happened. She calmly walked over to the umpire. “This is what’s happening. I know that you know it, and I know that you see it.” I don’t know what exactly she said, but stated her expectation pretty clearly. After she did that, everything changed.

I could probably name, top of mind, at least 5 tennis players who have thrown temper tantrums, like major temper tantrums. We know that happens at the workplace. I don’t want to work for a leader who throws a temper tantrum. Do you?

Ren:

No. No, thank you. I don’t want to work with a person who throws a temper tantrum.

Allison:

Right. And I mean, part of that probably has to do, again, with the team that’s around her. I think she’s acknowledged that, as well. But, you were just going to say something.

Ren:

Well, you raise an interesting point. So, it’s like I tell my kids around driving. Tell them all these rules and these standards of behavior, and they’ll look at us and they’ll be like, “Ugh. Don’t you trust me?” And, “Bluh. Don’t you believe in me?” We’re, “Yeah. I believe in you. But, it’s like you said. I don’t believe in that other 65-year-old idiot, who’s been driving poorly their whole life, who doesn’t know what they’re doing. They’re the person I have to look out for. So, I’m teaching you to be cautious of them.”

So then, I wonder. Fine, let’s say Coco’s got the most steely nerves and she, despite her years, has withstood enough to control her reactions enough, which I still don’t think is true, but let’s say she is. Does she have the wherewithal to manage someone else’s reactions? I think you know, in a workspace, people react, and  then they start to say really trite and personal and mean things, just because they’re in a fight-or-flight state.

So, do you have any caution about her ability to keep her cool when, maybe, it’s someone else giving her direct duress? I guess the situation you said is sort of like that, but I don’t know. What’s your reaction?

Allison:

I’m pausing and processing your question. So, I want to make sure I understand. The question is, let’s say you and I were really going at it.

Ren:

Right.

Allison:

She manages both of us, and she has to take care of that. Is that what you’re saying? She’s got to step in?

Ren:

Or even that we’re going at it. Then, she comes in, and it spills over onto her. I think, maybe, it’s like an EQ question. Think about yourself just now, as an adult. In emotional intelligence one of the key principles is self-awareness, self-exploration so you can be informed about how your emotions impact your relationships with others. That’s, like, a lifelong journey. You know what I mean? There’s so much I’m learning about myself today, and I am … 10 years older than Coco. I am … What would that mean? 29? Sure. Let’s go with it people.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. So, I’m still learning, as a spry 29-year-old, about my emotions. I think that’s what I’m talking about. She has to manage us, and then she has to manage spillage onto her.

Allison:

Well, given that I’m 25, and just turned 25 a few weeks ago … We’re just going to go with that. There are some “youngins”over here.

Ren:

I like it.

Allison:

So I think I would assume she has to navigate that. I can picture images of her mom, for example, in the stands, just ripping her fingernails off. You know?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Watching her daughter play and the anxiety that her parents probably feel watching her play. I also can think about watching a match of hers. Gosh, I don’t know what year this was it. Maybe, it was 2019, maybe. I’m not sure. She played Osaka, who I think we’ve talked about here on the podcast. She played Osaka and lost maybe in the semi-finals or the finals. I can’t remember. But, she was very upset and was teary-eyed and took the moment to have a bit of a camaraderie with Osaka. Some of that was guided by Osaka, at the end of the match where the winner generally gets interviewed, Naomi Osaka said, “Let’s do it together. This crowd is here to support you, too.”

I love tennis, so I do follow it. After that match, I saw a major shift in how she behaved on the court when she lost.

So, my whole point is that she seems to be a quick study and a quick learner and understands that that mental and emotional regulation is crucial for success, crucial. I do think she’d be able to do that.

Ren:

Yeah. Maybe, it’s just my personal concern that the world is so bitter and the weight of all of that. The perspective of thanking my haters. Even the strongest wall is susceptible to some erosion, and without constant and steady reapplication and attention to those edges that may erode … those critics and the inner critic that I know she’s got to manage, everyone does, but she’s got to manage that. Her level of expectation is so high, I’ve got to imagine that the critic is high. Then also, the other voices. I wonder, would she lose sight of herself? I think you’re right. She’s got this learning agility, this ability to move quickly, to learn from her losses, to change her posture. She doesn’t seem immune to changing her behavior, but there’s time, yet, man. There are traumas yet to happen that would make her stay and divert to going off the rails. So then, I wonder how can she continue to strengthen the skills that get her here and add new skills that will get her there?

Allison:

Well, given that she already has, and so quickly, that’s what gives me a little bit more hope. But, a question for you. If I were to describe you only as somebody who I work with, I mean, I guess you are who you are at work, but if I were to describe your working style to somebody, some of the things I might say is that you are very thoughtful, that you are very savvy, that you are methodical when needed, and you understand your audience. I’ll knock on wood for us, here, because I’ve never seen you, what I would call emotionally dysregulated, at the workplace. I can guarantee you, because you’re human, you’ve probably felt that as things probably get under your skin.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So maybe, then, you go home and do whatever it is you need to do to process that. My point is everybody becomes frustrated. Everybody does. It’s what your habits are to then process it in a way that’s, dare I say, professional. I don’t love that word. Professional is the best thing I can come up with. That’s sort of what I see from her.

My bigger question to you is, then, how are you able to do that? Do you agree with what I’m saying? How are you able to remain composed at the workplace when things frustrate you, or rattle you?

Ren:

Well, this maybe goes to my concern. How am I able to? I don’t know. Decades of self-work?

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

I mean, for real. And, that might be a light joke. I mean, I don’t think that it’s impossible for someone younger to attain it. Actually, maybe that’s what you’re saying, and we can see it better in her. She’s clearly more advanced than I was at 19. By whatever circumstance, whatever hard work she did, she’s at a position, now, where she’s gotten much and afforded herself a chance to act with grace and presence of mind at 19. The same kind of presence of mind that I could feel proud of, I think you said, as an adult. I could look at it and say, “She responded the way you’d want someone to respond.” But, how do I do it? When I’m able to be successful, it is loads and loads of diligence.

I was just reading. I’m nearly done with Marcus Aurelius and his Meditations. Part of the Stoic philosophy is not judging other people because whatever people are, who they are, it just is. But, he was saying something like, “You have to have learned a lot to effectively judge someone.” His premise was, “Don’t judge anyone. But if you are going to judge someone, you have to have loads of experience.”

So maybe, I just keep coming back to this tension that, naturally, young people always have to face in the work world. You don’t know what you don’t know. I don’t think real world experience counts for Coco because she’s been playing at the heights of her profession for 4 years. So, she’s the best in the world. One of the best in the world. It doesn’t go, but I could look at her and be like, “You don’t even know.”

It’s like when a little kid looks at you, and they talk about their first love. You want to support that love. You’re like, “Damn it. I love you, too.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And you look at him like, “You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, man.” Like, “Love is tough.” That’s what you want to tell that little kid. I don’t know. Is that making any sense?

Allison:

Yeah. It makes sense, and I would have to just challenge you a little bit. For her craft. Right? For her specific craft, she has experienced the most pressure that you could experience in her craft. It’s like being … I can’t even think of a comparison. If you were the CEO of CCL, or the owner of multiple firms, with a spotlight on you, constantly, to see when you were going to misstep, I would argue that she has experience, and it’s global. Tennis is a global sport and does not have an off season, even physically, which is a different story. I would say that my trust in her is high because she has demonstrated that she can handle that, time and time again.

She made it to the semis, maybe, or the quarters in the Australian Open after just winning the biggest tournament. I could, again, name some players who slam their rackets and throw tantrums. You know? Maybe, she does when she goes home, but she knows what’s appropriate, is why I would trust in her.

Ren:

Yeah. What I think I’m coming around to is … I didn’t make this clear earlier. But, yeah. I think from an experience standpoint, it wouldn’t be reasonable for anyone to look at her and be like, “What do you know?” Because she’s been playing at the upper reaches of her reach for a while. So, I think she’s got that. But maybe, what you’re saying, too, is more that she has also the experience of the pressure that a leader at the highest reaches of their game has experienced, for 4 years. Maybe, the most fragile point of her existence, as a 15-year-old forming into a young adult, she’s had to undergo this. So maybe, she has experienced the life lessons that I use to keep myself grounded. So maybe, that I’m seeing, those are the experiences that afford someone the wisdom that goes beyond their years.

Allison:

Yeah. Again, I think she has a solid team around her. So, if I were going to have Coco Gauff as my direct leader, I would keep my fingers crossed that her team would come with her because, again, she’s also very straightforward about that. It’s her team that makes her as successful as she is. I also appreciate a leader who says that, too.

Ren:

Says what? That my team is a big part of my success?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, maybe then, let’s start to shift to this conversation, as it relates to you, listening. We’re talking about Coco Gauff. Yeah. She’s awesome, but what does that have to do with me and my purchasing orders, or how do I manage supply chain?

So maybe, we can start to pivot to … Because I love that idea of the people around you really, really matter. Being brave enough to have good people around you is a muscle everyone needs to work out, regularly. So, is there anything else? Should we talk about Coco, about her character, her personhood, before we start talking about why this matters for leadership, or connections to leadership and leading?

Allison:

I think we’re getting there. The only other thing that came up is not direct about her, necessarily. Do you necessarily need to know how to do everything at an organization to be a leader at that organization, is something that’s coming up for me. To be an effective leader, do you have to know everything? Because she certainly doesn’t. That’s why she has a team.

Ren:

Right.

Allison:

So, that’s sort of where my head is starting to go.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, let’s answer that, and then, let’s go connect it to leaders. Because if you are a leader, listening, and you are going to a new place where you don’t, I think, no. My answer is you don’t need to. You need to know what they do. You probably need to know why they do it, more. You need to be willing to learn both of those things. So, I’d say that’s probably what someone needs to do. What do you think?

Allison:

Agree. I don’t think it hurts, I don’t think it hurts. I agree with everything you said. A mistake that I see organizations make, sometimes, is this person’s really good at their “individual contributor job.” I’m air quoting. “So, let’s promote them to a leader.” It doesn’t mean that they can’t be. Some of them are. I would recommend looking a little bit deeper under the hood before you promote somebody to a leadership role just because they’re good at their individual craft.

Ren:

Well, not to backpedal a little bit, but maybe point number 2 around my caution of Miss Gauff as being my leader. She achieved as an individual, the highest of reaches. That takes a certain kind of skillset and a certain kind of mindset. Now, is Coco going to kind of want to let me do it when she can clearly do it better than me? Now, maybe she doesn’t know the industry. But, yeah. I think that there’s probably something around that. I think there is sometimes a risk, too, of being too close to the industry. There’s some bad habits that we need to unlearn. I think what we’re saying, though, is that it’s not really a factor that restricts or advances, necessarily. It’s kind of what you do with it, your awareness of the industry.

Allison:

Yeah. I think so, I think so. And again, I’m going to repeat myself. Just re-grounding that she also plays doubles, maybe mixed, maybe 2 different variations. I’m not sure, but she’s number 1 in the world. There’s a team effort there that’s different from playing singles match. So, anyhow. I only say that to just highlight her experience is much more broad than simply playing singles, which is different.

Ren:

Well, naturally I want to poke the bear and say, well, a team of 2 is different from a team of 20, but the principles maybe withstand. That’s what we could talk about.

Allison:

It’s not though.

Ren:

No. It’s not. Okay. Great. Why?

Allison:

I don’t think it is.

Ren:

Yes. Tell me why.

Allison:

I realize the comparison I’m making is not apples to apples. McDonald’s, or a workplace, is not the same as playing tennis. I understand that’s different.

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

However, you have 2 people playing 2 people. Right?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

To reach an objective. Both teams, if you will, have their teams with them, who are part of that, and those teams have their people. So, there’s a structural element that’s similar and all of that needs to be aligned.

Ren:

Very good answer. Very good. I like it. That makes plenty of sense to me. I’m not here to just drag my feet. Okay. Sure, sure. Good job, Miss Barr. So maybe, then that’s some of what we can take away as you’re listening. I love the idea, and I say it all the time, “Aces in their places.” For me, personally, it’s like, “How can I work to be the dumbest person in the room?” Because I am not stupid. So, if I’m the dumbest person in the room, that’s a pretty badass room.

Allison:

Indeed.

Ren:

So, what other things is it that she does that matters for us, listening, versus things that we can connect to leadership, that matter?

Allison:

I don’t know if I’ve said directly. So, I’ll just say my top 3 that are helpful if you are a leader at an organization, or anywhere, is her ability to be composed under pressure, right now. I’ll be curious if you say the same, Ren. Most, if not all, of my clients are feeling worlds of pressure right now, and volatility and uncertainty. Lot of battles happening either internally or external to the company, or both. That ability to stay composed under pressure will lead you to your solution a lot faster. We know this, we talk about this. So, her composure under pressure would be the first thing.

Her gratitude and/or her ability to acknowledge her team and the people who supported her to get there, all the way out to people who sell the popcorn at the stadiums, making it an environment where people want to be. She’s aware of that entire ecosystem that helps her to get to where she is. And I think I would say strategy. I mean, you have to be strategic to be the kind of professional that she is.

Ren:

Yeah. What is she strategizing about, do you think?

Allison:

Oh, I think in every single moment that she plays a match, she’s strategizing in every moment on the spot.

Ren:

And like you’re … people are looking at you.

Allison:

And, likely.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, no, no. I mean if you and I are playing a tennis match.

Ren:

Just the game. Yeah.

Allison:

Yeah. I got to be pretty on top of my strategy for you. I think if she loses a match, looking back and saying, “Okay. What do I need to do differently?” Or, if she wins a match, “What can I keep?” Right? I think her entire career is probably based on strategy.

Ren:

Then maybe, that’s where I’ll pick it up because we were talking so big picture. The strategy it takes to weave together the doubles team and then their outfits, and then their outfits right? All those people in support networks and making all of that work. It’s having that 30,000-foot view of all of the resources at your fingertips. I think the thing that’s going to serve Coco the best, as if she needs my help, it is just her willingness to continue to learn from her experiences. I can only hope that she continues to have people around her who are ready for a fall. No one ever experiences a perfect run the whole time, whatever that means. Maybe, she never loses in tennis or experiences dips. Whether it’s that big first emotional dip, or a big loss, or a realization that maybe her future’s not in tennis, whatever that thing is for her, that’s coming for her because she’s 19 years old.

Now again, I’m not beating the idea of that, but she’s still a child. There’s just so much life yet to happen for her. I hope that what it does, she can stand strong as she has her whole life and in her youth, with her heart open, now. Yeah. It’s like, “Navigate that real experience with a real heart.” You said it, her heart, people feel it outside the stadium in concessions.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Ren:

So, I just think that sticks out, for me, for her, about something, and I hope she can maintain.

Allison:

Well, I mean, she’s probably listening. Let’s be honest. Let’s be real.

Ren:

Yeah. You’re welcome, Coco.

Allison:

Our podcast is probably priority to her. So, Coco, hire me. I have no reservations about you leading me.

Ren:

I love it.

Allison:

So maybe, that’s a good place to pause, landing on some of those key qualities that you and I just mentioned as a leader. Really investigating the things that you and I just talked about, and how they can serve you at your own organization. Namely, what Ren just mentioned about her ability to do some reflection and look at what’s working and what’s not, which can be one of the greatest, greatest talents or skills as a leader. So, Ren, any last words before we move on?

Ren:

Hot dog.

Allison:

Okay. All right. We’ll leave you with that, listeners. As always, Ren, thanks for the conversation.

Ren:

Yeah, thanks.

Allison:

And a big thank you to our podcast team who works behind the scenes to get us off the ground.

As always, you can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. Tune in next time to talk about the next leader, which I will keep secret, for now.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

And we look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison. Thanks, everybody.

Find Allison on TikTok.