Interview Transcript

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That. We talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership. It’s manager madness, Allison. That’s right. Where we, one by one, discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

Ren:

Today, Coco Gauff. Now Cori Gauff, or Coco, is an American professional tennis player who burst onto the international scene at 15 years old. Then, in a stunning upset, Coco defeated her idol, Venus Williams, in the first round at Wimbledon, making her the first young player, or rather the youngest player since 1991, to win a main draw match at Wimbledon.

While she didn’t win that tournament, that was just the beginning. At 19, Coco was already a US Open veteran, but during her fifth trip, she won that Grand Slam title.

She’s won a singles title in the World Tennis Association. She’s also achieved doubles success, winning 2 Grand Slam titles in mixed doubles.

Known for her aggressive baseline play, athleticism, and mental strength, Gauff has been hailed as one of the brightest young tennis players around and is the future for American tennis.

Off the court too, Gauff is an advocate for social justice and has often used her platform to speak out against racial inequality, police brutality. She’s vocal about her support for [the] Black Lives Matter movement. And Gauff’s maturity, both as an athlete and an activist, has made her a young role model for many aspiring people around the world.

So, welcome back everyone, or for the first time, if this is the first time you’re coming. My name is Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr.

Allison, in a word or 2, if Coco was your boss, what would you be excited about, and what would you be worried about?

Allison:

In a word or 2, I would be excited about her composure under incredible amounts of pressure. She’s very composed, and there are a few other things. I’ll pause until we get into those. So, that would be the first thing I would be excited about. I cannot think of anything that I would be worried about. What about you?

Ren:

You wouldn’t be worried about anything. She’s so perfect. You wouldn’t be worried about —

Allison:

I didn’t say she was perfect, but —

Ren:

You just can’t think of something that would be.

Allison:

Well, my boss is also not perfect, but I don’t worry. I’m not worried.

Ren:

Ah. So, we’re already getting into it, everyone. So, wait. Hold on. Is this because of your personality, you just don’t get worried, therefore, worry does not exist in your lexicon?

Allison:

No, no. Let it be known that I actually score as a worrier.

Ren:

Oh, you do?

Allison:

Oh, yes. I don’t worry about other people’s behavior, necessarily. It’s more my own.

Ren:

Okay. Interesting. So, what do you think that she might do that would worry you about your own behavior?

Allison:

Oh, my gosh.

Ren:

… treat you like a hostile witness, over here.

Allison:

Welcome to therapy with Ren and Allison.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Ask me that question again. What do I think she would –

Ren:

Well, I’m just really trying to prime you.

Allison:

Okay, okay.

Ren:

If you had to say it, if you had to tell me, one thing that could possibly worry you. Something that she did that would make you worry about your own self. What would that be?

Allison:

I would worry if I could meet the expectations.

Ren:

Ah. That you put on yourself about being around such greatness.

Allison:

Yes. Like, “Could I possibly meet the standards she sets for herself?” I don’t know. Would she set those for her team? I have no idea … We could get into a rabbit hole here, but I would like you to also answer the same questions that you asked me.

Ren:

Well, you’ll get your wish. But, thank you. I think that’s a very valid and useful question when we ask leaders, sometimes, “What would worry you about that person?” Yeah. I’d be worried that I couldn’t live up to the expectation that they set for themselves. I often caution leaders about not using your own expectations for others. So, yes. There is something there.

Let’s see. What would I be excited about? Gosh, seeing the world through the eyes of a young success. So maybe, young success are my 2 words. What would I be worried about? Young success. That’s also the thing that might make me most cautious.

Allison:

Say more about that.

Ren:

I think this might come up more later when we talk about, “Would we want to work for this person, or would we want this person as our leader?” Like strengths overplayed, potential shadow sides …

A lot of times if you have experience, or experience success early, sometimes the biggest killer for success is a failure to adapt from what gave you success. So, reasonably, I could look at someone who’s had to deal with older people telling her what to do her whole life. She could look back and say, “What the hell do you know? I’m a pro. I’m one of the best in the world, and I’m 19.”

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

That person may very well be clouded by, rightfully so, their perfection, their own expectations, and maybe not give me space, or themselves, space to grow.

Allison:

Interesting. When she won the US Open last year, she beat the number 1 seed, Sabalenka, at age 19. She’ll be 20 in March, I believe. So, she’s 19 years old.

What makes me curious about what you said, is her response after she won — was immense gratitude, not only for her own team and her parents of course, and those who support her directly, but for people who indirectly support her. That’s sort of what also got me excited to talk about her, too. She just won one of the biggest tennis tournaments in the world.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Again, at age 19 years old. How would you have responded, do you think, at age 19? If you think about Ren, as Ren was at age 19. For your own sport, winning the biggest tournament in the world, in your own country where people are rooting you on, wholeheartedly. You’re asked to talk about that. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

19-year-old Ren, how would that go?

Ren:

Did you see Travis Kelce —

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

— after the Super Bowl, in his speech when he was —

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

— on stage?

Allison:

Yes. I —

Ren:

Like that, but worse. A much, much worse version.

Allison:

Wait. How worse? I need to know worse.

Ren:

I don’t know. I mean, are you asking me, “Ren, do you think you have the composure that Coco Gauff does?” I don’t know if I have the composure, still, that Coco Gauff does.

Now, it does remind me of the good people she must surround herself with. So, I guess you’re saying that, maybe, my fears of her youth are misplaced?

Allison:

Well, just curious. Right? I’m sure she gets media training because they all do, I’m sure. But somebody like Ben Shelton, if you don’t know who that is, Google him.

Ren:

I don’t.

Allison:

I think he’s, maybe, around the same age, and I think he’s got the fastest serve on the men’s side. He’s up and coming. He hasn’t won any Grand Slams, yet. Anyhow, regardless. Different person. But his response is, one might say, a little bit overconfident in comparison, for somebody who has never won a Slam. Right?

Where Coco Gauff, in her press conferences, was thanking the camera crew, the ball kids, the tournament director, all of the people who put the tournament together. I’ll quote her because this is her language, not mine. She thanked her “haters for driving her.” My point is that she took the time to think about all of the people that come together to make the tournament happen in the first place. Without any of them, she knows that her success, it just wouldn’t have happened.

Ren:

So to juxtapose, who’s this Ben guy? What’s his name?

Allison:

Ben Shelton. I’m sorry, Ben.

Ren:

Ben Shelton.

Allison:

Yeah. I like you, Ben.

Ren:

You’re getting flamed, Ben. No. It’s okay. So, he’s a little cocky. So maybe in the true spirit of SBI — Situation, Behavior, Impact — what indicates to you his cockiness or arrogance? Because I think we heard something that is meaningful for you for Coco, which is maybe the demonstrated humility by talking about how grateful she is and how thankful she is. I didn’t see Ben. I think he got to the semis this year. Right? Or something like that. I don’t even know how well he performed.

Allison:

Yeah. Quarters or semis. So, I also want to acknowledge that I know there’s part of sports psychology where you have to hype yourself up. I get that. I understand that.

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

Especially, when you’re an individual playing against another individual. You don’t have a team to hype you up. I know there’s part of psychology around this. Again, he has one of the biggest serves in tennis, ever. It’s ridiculous. If you haven’t seen it, you should look. I think his speeds are up to 140 miles an hour, or more than that. It’s unbelievable.

Ren:

That’s fun. That’s dangerous. It’s scary.

Allison:

Yeah. So his celebration, I’m going to try to describe it, but I can show you, Ren, as we’re here. Any time he would do something well, he would act like he was answering the phone, put his hand up to his ear. Then, slam it as if he was just … Which I don’t really understand what that means, anyhow. That was his little celebratory, “In your face, Ren. I just aced you for the 10th time in a row.”

Ren:

Okay. Yeah.

Allison:

Whatever that is. He got absolutely annihilated by Novak Djokovic, who’s the number 1 seed of course, and did that a couple times in that match. I’m like, “Is this really … You know? You’re kind of getting schooled here. Is this time for you to be hanging up your banana phone,” or whatever?

Ren:

That’s funny. I just watched it. I think he’s probably like, “Who? I can’t hear you anymore.” He’s hanging up on his haters, too.

Allison:

Oh.

Ren:

It’s probably —

Allison:

Is that what that means? Okay.

Ren:

I have no idea. That’s just my quick assessment. But, you’re saying it’s not like grace under fire or generosity. Then, the worst is when someone’s braggadocious, and then they get crushed by the best tennis player around.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

You’re like, “Well, there you go, kid.”

Allison:

To which Djokovic, rightfully, did right back at him after he won. Which, you know? The little tension on the sports, I’m here for it.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

But my point is, then you listen to that press conference versus a press conference by somebody who just won the whole tournament at age 19 —

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

— won the whole thing, the entire thing, who was expressing so much gratitude to the people who helped her to get there.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So, my SBI to her, then, is when you expressed gratitude towards literally everybody she could possibly think of in her life, directly or indirectly, I felt inspired by that.

Ren:

Same. Yeah. Admittedly, I mean, we’re going to be talking about the most elite, most amazing people on the planet.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

So obviously, she’s incredibly special. You don’t have that kind of success at being that special. So, any nitpicking I might do is just in service of that. But, I do wonder. Maybe, this is part of this question around would I want this person as my leader, is the exploration of even the most advanced youth?

Let’s take Coco now. Coco at 29, would she look backward and be … I can only imagine that Coco is going to be more mature, more advanced than she is now, in 10 years, simply because she’s demonstrated her willingness to work on herself so much today. So maybe, that’s the paradigm that I’m tapping at. Well, let me ask you a question. Would you want to have Coco be your leader, knowing that you’d be worried about living up to her expectations?

Allison:

Yes. Because I appreciate when people push the limits of what I think I’m capable of.

Ren:

Could she even conceptualize it at 19?

Allison:

Conceptualize what?

Ren:

The limits of your capabilities.

Allison:

What’s driving that question?

Ren:

I mean, just biochemically, her brain literally isn’t finished forming, yet. So, some of the connections that she might need to ethereally think big enough about your capabilities, she may not even have the language to do so. When we talk capabilities, could she think that you’d crush that Excel spreadsheet? Or, would she think like me, the capabilities, Allison, that you might have on changing the world, 3 legacies down, by someone you had a conversation with in a program? Would she even be able to conceptualize that as a start point for capability development?

Allison:

Well, you raise an interesting question. So, a couple of things. The first thing that comes to mind is that she is ranked, with her partner, number 1 in doubles. They’re ranked number 1. That is in the world, by the way. And so —

Ren:

Is it mixed doubles, too, or —

Allison:

Ooh. Oh, that’s a good question actually —

Ren:

Because she’s got a mixed doubles title. That’s important, listeners, because the mix is the men and women playing together. Just again, talks about her general prowess, I would say. But —

Allison:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ren:

Sorry. Go ahead.

Allison:

That’s okay. Any time you’re working in a partnership with somebody to achieve a goal, regardless if it’s tennis or a podcast or something else, building a house, whatever, to work effectively with somebody else, it’s helpful to be able to acknowledge what their strengths are, give some encouragement when needed, push a little when necessary. I would be hard-pressed to believe that they don’t do that with each other.

So, yes. I think she would be capable. Now, let’s be real. She’s a tennis expert. You and I work in leadership development. So, am I to assume that she’s an expert in leadership development for the sake of this conversation?

Ren:

Well, you raise an interesting point because are we going to be direct, or not? I think we can do both. We often have clients who have to work for someone who’s out of industry. We often hear about that. Right? Organizations will hire us and they’ll be like, “Yo.” Everyone’s homegrown. We’re hiring someone new. They don’t work in the industry, they’re brand new. We have to teach people or help them understand how to overcome their reticence to engage them. We got to teach this other person to embed themselves in a way that matters. So, I don’t know. Whatever’s useful for your conversation, maybe both. Maybe, she doesn’t and she does.

Allison:

Well, her age doesn’t concern me because I’ve met 65-year-old leaders who cannot do it either. So to answer that question directly, given her career thus far, her age does not concern me.

Ren:

I’m not concerned by her age. I’m not —

Allison:

You directly mentioned her age.

Ren:

Because I’m corresponding her biological age to her physical development of her brain. Now, you and I get to debate psychologically or philosophically whether a fully developed brain leads to fully developed thoughts or fully developed humanity. Now, chuckle, ha, ha. Fully developed humanity, does that take 65 years or hundreds of years and many circles around the sun? These are the things that I’m ultimately exploring. Do I think 29-year-old Coco Gauff would be better than 19-year-old Coco Gauff at leading me, or leadership? I might bet on it.

Allison:

Yeah. You might be right. You might be wrong. You might be right. There’s no way I would turn down that opportunity.

Ren:

Just to work for her, or with her.

Allison:

Yes. Correct. To bring up another example. I don’t know how much you watch tennis, Ren, or our listeners. There are some tennis players who are very famous and well-known, who make spectacles when they’re in frustration on the tennis court. I mean, swearing at the umpire, in really hostile ways.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Crushing their rackets, throwing adult temper tantrums. This is somebody who played a match at the US Open. I can’t remember if it was the quarterfinals. It was prior to the semis. Played a German woman who constantly violated the rules. I don’t know if you read about this, Ren. The umpire was not calling any sort of violation for her opponent for violating the rules, time and time and time again. And, Coco Gauff’s response to that was what you would want it to be when there’s a little bit of volatility at the workplace. Right? Calm under pressure, facts. Factually, this is what has happened. She calmly walked over to the umpire. “This is what’s happening. I know that you know it, and I know that you see it.” I don’t know what exactly she said, but stated her expectation pretty clearly. After she did that, everything changed.

I could probably name, top of mind, at least 5 tennis players who have thrown temper tantrums, like major temper tantrums. We know that happens at the workplace. I don’t want to work for a leader who throws a temper tantrum. Do you?

Ren:

No. No, thank you. I don’t want to work with a person who throws a temper tantrum.

Allison:

Right. And I mean, part of that probably has to do, again, with the team that’s around her. I think she’s acknowledged that, as well. But, you were just going to say something.

Ren:

Well, you raise an interesting point. So, it’s like I tell my kids around driving. Tell them all these rules and these standards of behavior, and they’ll look at us and they’ll be like, “Ugh. Don’t you trust me?” And, “Bluh. Don’t you believe in me?” We’re, “Yeah. I believe in you. But, it’s like you said. I don’t believe in that other 65-year-old idiot, who’s been driving poorly their whole life, who doesn’t know what they’re doing. They’re the person I have to look out for. So, I’m teaching you to be cautious of them.”

So then, I wonder. Fine, let’s say Coco’s got the most steely nerves and she, despite her years, has withstood enough to control her reactions enough, which I still don’t think is true, but let’s say she is. Does she have the wherewithal to manage someone else’s reactions? I think you know, in a workspace, people react, and  then they start to say really trite and personal and mean things, just because they’re in a fight-or-flight state.

So, do you have any caution about her ability to keep her cool when, maybe, it’s someone else giving her direct duress? I guess the situation you said is sort of like that, but I don’t know. What’s your reaction?

Allison:

I’m pausing and processing your question. So, I want to make sure I understand. The question is, let’s say you and I were really going at it.

Ren:

Right.

Allison:

She manages both of us, and she has to take care of that. Is that what you’re saying? She’s got to step in?

Ren:

Or even that we’re going at it. Then, she comes in, and it spills over onto her. I think, maybe, it’s like an EQ question. Think about yourself just now, as an adult. In emotional intelligence one of the key principles is self-awareness, self-exploration so you can be informed about how your emotions impact your relationships with others. That’s, like, a lifelong journey. You know what I mean? There’s so much I’m learning about myself today, and I am … 10 years older than Coco. I am … What would that mean? 29? Sure. Let’s go with it people.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. So, I’m still learning, as a spry 29-year-old, about my emotions. I think that’s what I’m talking about. She has to manage us, and then she has to manage spillage onto her.

Allison:

Well, given that I’m 25, and just turned 25 a few weeks ago … We’re just going to go with that. There are some “youngins”over here.

Ren:

I like it.

Allison:

So I think I would assume she has to navigate that. I can picture images of her mom, for example, in the stands, just ripping her fingernails off. You know?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Watching her daughter play and the anxiety that her parents probably feel watching her play. I also can think about watching a match of hers. Gosh, I don’t know what year this was it. Maybe, it was 2019, maybe. I’m not sure. She played Osaka, who I think we’ve talked about here on the podcast. She played Osaka and lost maybe in the semi-finals or the finals. I can’t remember. But, she was very upset and was teary-eyed and took the moment to have a bit of a camaraderie with Osaka. Some of that was guided by Osaka, at the end of the match where the winner generally gets interviewed, Naomi Osaka said, “Let’s do it together. This crowd is here to support you, too.”

I love tennis, so I do follow it. After that match, I saw a major shift in how she behaved on the court when she lost.

So, my whole point is that she seems to be a quick study and a quick learner and understands that that mental and emotional regulation is crucial for success, crucial. I do think she’d be able to do that.

Ren:

Yeah. Maybe, it’s just my personal concern that the world is so bitter and the weight of all of that. The perspective of thanking my haters. Even the strongest wall is susceptible to some erosion, and without constant and steady reapplication and attention to those edges that may erode … those critics and the inner critic that I know she’s got to manage, everyone does, but she’s got to manage that. Her level of expectation is so high, I’ve got to imagine that the critic is high. Then also, the other voices. I wonder, would she lose sight of herself? I think you’re right. She’s got this learning agility, this ability to move quickly, to learn from her losses, to change her posture. She doesn’t seem immune to changing her behavior, but there’s time, yet, man. There are traumas yet to happen that would make her stay and divert to going off the rails. So then, I wonder how can she continue to strengthen the skills that get her here and add new skills that will get her there?

Allison:

Well, given that she already has, and so quickly, that’s what gives me a little bit more hope. But, a question for you. If I were to describe you only as somebody who I work with, I mean, I guess you are who you are at work, but if I were to describe your working style to somebody, some of the things I might say is that you are very thoughtful, that you are very savvy, that you are methodical when needed, and you understand your audience. I’ll knock on wood for us, here, because I’ve never seen you, what I would call emotionally dysregulated, at the workplace. I can guarantee you, because you’re human, you’ve probably felt that as things probably get under your skin.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So maybe, then, you go home and do whatever it is you need to do to process that. My point is everybody becomes frustrated. Everybody does. It’s what your habits are to then process it in a way that’s, dare I say, professional. I don’t love that word. Professional is the best thing I can come up with. That’s sort of what I see from her.

My bigger question to you is, then, how are you able to do that? Do you agree with what I’m saying? How are you able to remain composed at the workplace when things frustrate you, or rattle you?

Ren:

Well, this maybe goes to my concern. How am I able to? I don’t know. Decades of self-work?

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

I mean, for real. And, that might be a light joke. I mean, I don’t think that it’s impossible for someone younger to attain it. Actually, maybe that’s what you’re saying, and we can see it better in her. She’s clearly more advanced than I was at 19. By whatever circumstance, whatever hard work she did, she’s at a position, now, where she’s gotten much and afforded herself a chance to act with grace and presence of mind at 19. The same kind of presence of mind that I could feel proud of, I think you said, as an adult. I could look at it and say, “She responded the way you’d want someone to respond.” But, how do I do it? When I’m able to be successful, it is loads and loads of diligence.

I was just reading. I’m nearly done with Marcus Aurelius and his Meditations. Part of the Stoic philosophy is not judging other people because whatever people are, who they are, it just is. But, he was saying something like, “You have to have learned a lot to effectively judge someone.” His premise was, “Don’t judge anyone. But if you are going to judge someone, you have to have loads of experience.”

So maybe, I just keep coming back to this tension that, naturally, young people always have to face in the work world. You don’t know what you don’t know. I don’t think real world experience counts for Coco because she’s been playing at the heights of her profession for 4 years. So, she’s the best in the world. One of the best in the world. It doesn’t go, but I could look at her and be like, “You don’t even know.”

It’s like when a little kid looks at you, and they talk about their first love. You want to support that love. You’re like, “Damn it. I love you, too.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And you look at him like, “You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, man.” Like, “Love is tough.” That’s what you want to tell that little kid. I don’t know. Is that making any sense?

Allison:

Yeah. It makes sense, and I would have to just challenge you a little bit. For her craft. Right? For her specific craft, she has experienced the most pressure that you could experience in her craft. It’s like being … I can’t even think of a comparison. If you were the CEO of CCL, or the owner of multiple firms, with a spotlight on you, constantly, to see when you were going to misstep, I would argue that she has experience, and it’s global. Tennis is a global sport and does not have an off season, even physically, which is a different story. I would say that my trust in her is high because she has demonstrated that she can handle that, time and time again.

She made it to the semis, maybe, or the quarters in the Australian Open after just winning the biggest tournament. I could, again, name some players who slam their rackets and throw tantrums. You know? Maybe, she does when she goes home, but she knows what’s appropriate, is why I would trust in her.

Ren:

Yeah. What I think I’m coming around to is … I didn’t make this clear earlier. But, yeah. I think from an experience standpoint, it wouldn’t be reasonable for anyone to look at her and be like, “What do you know?” Because she’s been playing at the upper reaches of her reach for a while. So, I think she’s got that. But maybe, what you’re saying, too, is more that she has also the experience of the pressure that a leader at the highest reaches of their game has experienced, for 4 years. Maybe, the most fragile point of her existence, as a 15-year-old forming into a young adult, she’s had to undergo this. So maybe, she has experienced the life lessons that I use to keep myself grounded. So maybe, that I’m seeing, those are the experiences that afford someone the wisdom that goes beyond their years.

Allison:

Yeah. Again, I think she has a solid team around her. So, if I were going to have Coco Gauff as my direct leader, I would keep my fingers crossed that her team would come with her because, again, she’s also very straightforward about that. It’s her team that makes her as successful as she is. I also appreciate a leader who says that, too.

Ren:

Says what? That my team is a big part of my success?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, maybe then, let’s start to shift to this conversation, as it relates to you, listening. We’re talking about Coco Gauff. Yeah. She’s awesome, but what does that have to do with me and my purchasing orders, or how do I manage supply chain?

So maybe, we can start to pivot to … Because I love that idea of the people around you really, really matter. Being brave enough to have good people around you is a muscle everyone needs to work out, regularly. So, is there anything else? Should we talk about Coco, about her character, her personhood, before we start talking about why this matters for leadership, or connections to leadership and leading?

Allison:

I think we’re getting there. The only other thing that came up is not direct about her, necessarily. Do you necessarily need to know how to do everything at an organization to be a leader at that organization, is something that’s coming up for me. To be an effective leader, do you have to know everything? Because she certainly doesn’t. That’s why she has a team.

Ren:

Right.

Allison:

So, that’s sort of where my head is starting to go.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, let’s answer that, and then, let’s go connect it to leaders. Because if you are a leader, listening, and you are going to a new place where you don’t, I think, no. My answer is you don’t need to. You need to know what they do. You probably need to know why they do it, more. You need to be willing to learn both of those things. So, I’d say that’s probably what someone needs to do. What do you think?

Allison:

Agree. I don’t think it hurts, I don’t think it hurts. I agree with everything you said. A mistake that I see organizations make, sometimes, is this person’s really good at their “individual contributor job.” I’m air quoting. “So, let’s promote them to a leader.” It doesn’t mean that they can’t be. Some of them are. I would recommend looking a little bit deeper under the hood before you promote somebody to a leadership role just because they’re good at their individual craft.

Ren:

Well, not to backpedal a little bit, but maybe point number 2 around my caution of Miss Gauff as being my leader. She achieved as an individual, the highest of reaches. That takes a certain kind of skillset and a certain kind of mindset. Now, is Coco going to kind of want to let me do it when she can clearly do it better than me? Now, maybe she doesn’t know the industry. But, yeah. I think that there’s probably something around that. I think there is sometimes a risk, too, of being too close to the industry. There’s some bad habits that we need to unlearn. I think what we’re saying, though, is that it’s not really a factor that restricts or advances, necessarily. It’s kind of what you do with it, your awareness of the industry.

Allison:

Yeah. I think so, I think so. And again, I’m going to repeat myself. Just re-grounding that she also plays doubles, maybe mixed, maybe 2 different variations. I’m not sure, but she’s number 1 in the world. There’s a team effort there that’s different from playing singles match. So, anyhow. I only say that to just highlight her experience is much more broad than simply playing singles, which is different.

Ren:

Well, naturally I want to poke the bear and say, well, a team of 2 is different from a team of 20, but the principles maybe withstand. That’s what we could talk about.

Allison:

It’s not though.

Ren:

No. It’s not. Okay. Great. Why?

Allison:

I don’t think it is.

Ren:

Yes. Tell me why.

Allison:

I realize the comparison I’m making is not apples to apples. McDonald’s, or a workplace, is not the same as playing tennis. I understand that’s different.

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

However, you have 2 people playing 2 people. Right?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

To reach an objective. Both teams, if you will, have their teams with them, who are part of that, and those teams have their people. So, there’s a structural element that’s similar and all of that needs to be aligned.

Ren:

Very good answer. Very good. I like it. That makes plenty of sense to me. I’m not here to just drag my feet. Okay. Sure, sure. Good job, Miss Barr. So maybe, then that’s some of what we can take away as you’re listening. I love the idea, and I say it all the time, “Aces in their places.” For me, personally, it’s like, “How can I work to be the dumbest person in the room?” Because I am not stupid. So, if I’m the dumbest person in the room, that’s a pretty badass room.

Allison:

Indeed.

Ren:

So, what other things is it that she does that matters for us, listening, versus things that we can connect to leadership, that matter?

Allison:

I don’t know if I’ve said directly. So, I’ll just say my top 3 that are helpful if you are a leader at an organization, or anywhere, is her ability to be composed under pressure, right now. I’ll be curious if you say the same, Ren. Most, if not all, of my clients are feeling worlds of pressure right now, and volatility and uncertainty. Lot of battles happening either internally or external to the company, or both. That ability to stay composed under pressure will lead you to your solution a lot faster. We know this, we talk about this. So, her composure under pressure would be the first thing.

Her gratitude and/or her ability to acknowledge her team and the people who supported her to get there, all the way out to people who sell the popcorn at the stadiums, making it an environment where people want to be. She’s aware of that entire ecosystem that helps her to get to where she is. And I think I would say strategy. I mean, you have to be strategic to be the kind of professional that she is.

Ren:

Yeah. What is she strategizing about, do you think?

Allison:

Oh, I think in every single moment that she plays a match, she’s strategizing in every moment on the spot.

Ren:

And like you’re … people are looking at you.

Allison:

And, likely.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, no, no. I mean if you and I are playing a tennis match.

Ren:

Just the game. Yeah.

Allison:

Yeah. I got to be pretty on top of my strategy for you. I think if she loses a match, looking back and saying, “Okay. What do I need to do differently?” Or, if she wins a match, “What can I keep?” Right? I think her entire career is probably based on strategy.

Ren:

Then maybe, that’s where I’ll pick it up because we were talking so big picture. The strategy it takes to weave together the doubles team and then their outfits, and then their outfits right? All those people in support networks and making all of that work. It’s having that 30,000-foot view of all of the resources at your fingertips. I think the thing that’s going to serve Coco the best, as if she needs my help, it is just her willingness to continue to learn from her experiences. I can only hope that she continues to have people around her who are ready for a fall. No one ever experiences a perfect run the whole time, whatever that means. Maybe, she never loses in tennis or experiences dips. Whether it’s that big first emotional dip, or a big loss, or a realization that maybe her future’s not in tennis, whatever that thing is for her, that’s coming for her because she’s 19 years old.

Now again, I’m not beating the idea of that, but she’s still a child. There’s just so much life yet to happen for her. I hope that what it does, she can stand strong as she has her whole life and in her youth, with her heart open, now. Yeah. It’s like, “Navigate that real experience with a real heart.” You said it, her heart, people feel it outside the stadium in concessions.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Ren:

So, I just think that sticks out, for me, for her, about something, and I hope she can maintain.

Allison:

Well, I mean, she’s probably listening. Let’s be honest. Let’s be real.

Ren:

Yeah. You’re welcome, Coco.

Allison:

Our podcast is probably priority to her. So, Coco, hire me. I have no reservations about you leading me.

Ren:

I love it.

Allison:

So maybe, that’s a good place to pause, landing on some of those key qualities that you and I just mentioned as a leader. Really investigating the things that you and I just talked about, and how they can serve you at your own organization. Namely, what Ren just mentioned about her ability to do some reflection and look at what’s working and what’s not, which can be one of the greatest, greatest talents or skills as a leader. So, Ren, any last words before we move on?

Ren:

Hot dog.

Allison:

Okay. All right. We’ll leave you with that, listeners. As always, Ren, thanks for the conversation.

Ren:

Yeah, thanks.

Allison:

And a big thank you to our podcast team who works behind the scenes to get us off the ground.

As always, you can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. Tune in next time to talk about the next leader, which I will keep secret, for now.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

And we look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison. Thanks, everybody.

Find Allison on TikTok.

Interview Transcript

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Now, let me give you a few stats to start us off here, folks. The Star Spangled Banner at 11; signed with Sony records at 14; first Platinum album at 16; the youngest artist in history to have written and performed a number one song on the Hot Country Songs chart. Youngest person to ever win Entertainer of the Year at the Country Music Association Awards. Youngest person to win Album of the Year; first woman to win Album of the Year 3 times. Anyone know who I’m talking about? No? Maybe? How about this? The highest earning female musician of the past decade. Most number one hits on Billboard’s U.S. digital song sales chart. She broke the record for the most-streamed album in a single day in Spotify history, then she broke it again, and then one of every 25 vinyl album sold in the U.S. in 2022 was by, that’s right, Taylor Swift.

Yes, Swifties. We’re talking about your girl today. Now, Taylor Swift has been a dominant force in the music industry for over a decade, with numerous awards and accolades to her name. She’s not only achieved incredible success as an artist, but has also taken a strong leadership role in the industry advocating for artists’ rights and paving the way for young female musicians and using her voice in society more than ever. Throughout her career, Taylor has demonstrated a unique set of leadership qualities that have helped her rise to the top of her field, from her ability to connect with her fans to her willingness to be creative and take creative risks and reinvent herself, Taylor has shown us what it takes to be a successful leader in a constantly evolving industry. So today we talk Taylor Swift and examine the leadership qualities of one of the most successful and iconic artists of today. Welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, be honest. Are you a Swiftie?

Allison:

So, I support Taylor Swift, yes, but I don’t know that I am a Swiftie. Her fan base is truly something remarkable, and I don’t know if, by their standards, I would fit in as a Swiftie. However, I support her. I think she’s an incredible businesswoman, and I wouldn’t say that I knew too much about her prior to 2020. However, based on some stories and some things that we’ll probably talk about, I’ve gotten to know at least her as a business person a little bit better more recently. What about you?

Ren:

No, I’m not a Swiftie, and I can assure you, as my daughter’s friend can assure you, any of your waffling over your fandom would indicate you’re not a Swiftie. They have the Spotify wrap-ups, and my daughter was telling me about some of her friends in the upper percentile of American Taylor Swift fans for hours of Taylor Swift listened to. So, no, I know I’m not a Swiftie, and I had been maybe apathetic at best about Taylor Swift for a really long time, but recently, whether it be with Ticketmaster or her fledgling political voice that she’s starting to use, or really frankly, my wife watched the documentary on her, I think it’s on Netflix, and she told me a little bit about it, and I was like, oh, that’s interesting. And then her, I don’t know, her no-name boyfriend. I’m sorry, maybe he’s famous. I think he’s an English actor. They broke up. But I thought, what an interesting chance to talk about Taylor Swift, who by all accounts is this prolific person, and maybe we should be looking at her and her success and how she’s leading herself and others in this world.

Allison:

Yeah, I also watched that documentary. That’s how I came to know a little bit more about her and what she’s up to, though I will say, I think it was in 2017 or 2018, I followed her assault trial and was very impressed with her communication and her composure. A lot of that was public. And after that, Roger and I watched her documentary. It was sometime in 2020. And again, I learned so much more about her as an artist, as an advocate, as a businesswoman, that she’s much more than somebody who sings pop songs.

Ren:

Yeah. And I know we’re going to bounce around a little bit, and that’s something that I wanted to talk about when we really start to explore her characteristics, that situation that she had. Are you talking about with David Mueller and that radio host?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yeah. Her presence and grace is really something to explore and start to investigate, especially for a young person. But maybe that’s what I think about is so impressive about her as a young person. When I think about who she is or what she’s accomplished, Taylor Swift’s 33 now. I was going to try to find out how many awards she’s won. I guess conservatively, it’s something between like 300 and 500 awards. Basically, if she’s got an award out, if that award exists, she’s won it. She’s won the Grammys 12 times, 34 American Music Awards, and as a fellow person in their thirties, Taylor, why you got to do me so bad?

Allison:

Well, what I was going to say that I’m questioning now is I think it’s interesting that she’s not talked about more, but perhaps I just don’t follow enough about her. Maybe she is talked about more in the industry. I’m not sure. You already mentioned in 2022 she was the highest paid woman entertainer. That’s a global statistic too, which is bonkers. She writes all of her music, which a lot of artists don’t get that luxury. What I appreciate about her too is that she, generally speaking, she makes public statements herself versus using a PR firm. And she’s really not afraid to stand in what she values, and she’s not afraid to challenge bigger firms like Spotify and Apple.

A story that stood out to me from I believe it was maybe 2019 or 2020, she made a statement about Apple saying, and I’m going to quote her here, “I’m sure you’re all aware that Apple Music will be offering a 3-month trial to anyone who signs up for the service. I’m not sure that you know that Apple Music will not be paying writers, producers, or artists for those 3 months, and I find it to be shocking, disappointing, and completely unlike this historically progressive and generous company.” And within hours, just within a few hours of her making that statement, Apple completely changed its direction, so her influence is something to be noted as well.

Ren:

And I think we’ll talk a little bit more around her level of investment in that kind of artist appreciation, but something that you highlighted there, and I think this is why this matters for anyone listening, is that Taylor Swift has reach and influence. Something that we’ll talk about today is her decision to use her voice for political means. And we’ll just explore, I think, some of the impact about that. But when we look at Swifties, I was reading this Forbes report, this study that they were citing that some 53% of U.S. adults said they were fans of Taylor Swift. Now, only 16% of them identified as avid, and I guess, within that, only about half consider them true Swifties. So again, we can confirm for each other. We are not they.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

But when I think about why it matters, let’s just take it beyond her fandom, but keep it in her fandom. In November ’22, you likely remember, folks, that Ticketmaster crashed or started to do some shady business practices for Taylor Swift’s concert. And then that, or her tour rather, her Eras tour for ’23, and all of that visibility and all the uproar caused Congress to look at Live Nation and Ticketmaster and the potential monopoly that is in there because of the fandom of Taylor Swift. So it’s really interesting to think about, well, why talk Taylor Swift? Well, we talk Taylor Swift because of use, or rather reach, her potential impact on others, but then maybe just looking at this artistry and navigating how this young person has been able to be as prolific and successful as she’s been.

Allison:

Yeah. One of the standout qualities, I think, that’s interesting, you sort of alluded to already. She came about, and her fans as well came about, in the age of social media, and she uses social media in a way that a lot of artists do not. She’s known for prioritizing her fans and communicating them pretty authentically, which is an interesting leadership and business parallel to make if you think about it. But we know in our work that some of the most successful and high-performing organizations are that way because their consumers take on the company brand identity. And if you think about Taylor Swift as … I don’t want to call her a product because that feels sort of icky, but she is a brand, and if you look at their fan base, would you say that they’ve taken on the brand identity of Taylor Swift?

Ren:

Yeah, as you were saying that I thought, dang, how right are you? I remember there was a time in my life I would only wear Nike football cleats, and I feel like there’s a time in people’s lives now where they will only ride or die for Taylor Swift.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. You said something about, she was able to live authentically. And I think that’s something we talk about. What’s an example of her being able to be authentic for her fans or for her brand?

Allison:

Well, I can give you 2 answers to that. I read an article, and then I can speak, not personally, but semi-personally.

Ren:

But you don’t know Taylor?

Allison:

Not yet.

Ren:

Okay.

Allison:

Maybe she’ll listen. I don’t know. I’ll tag her when we’re done.

Ren:

Oh, I wonder if she comes up on our Google searches. Taylor, we love you.

Allison:

Yeah. But I was mentioning that her fan base grew up in the age of social media and she’s been known to reply, make comments to her followers, repost their photos. If fans take pictures at her concerts, she’ll repost them. So she’s running her own social media account, which is absolutely —

Ren:

Wild.

Allison:

Right? It is unheard of. And from a more, again, not personal, but personal by association I suppose, I love TikTok. And on TikTok, someone I follow who’s not a famous person, just a you and me who’s a Swiftie, tagged Taylor Swift in a concert video. And Taylor Swift responded with a heart emoji to this person’s account, who maybe has 200 followers. She’s not famous, she’s a fan of Taylor Swift. And Taylor Swift commented on this woman’s post, which I would imagine creates a feeling of connection and maybe even a community, and you alluded to this already too, but definitely a feeling of belonging, which is another interesting parallel to leadership. So I think, again, that she runs her own social media account in ways to connect to her fan base versus promoting herself … is very different than a lot of businesses run their social media.

Ren:

Well, what resonates for me maybe is this idea that it’s authenticity through practice, just the willingness to do that. The thing that comes up for me, and this is important for a lot of clients that I work with too, is this idea, this company ethos that no one’s bigger than the job or no one’s bigger than the work. And maybe Taylor’s like, I’m not bigger than the people who got me. I’m going to show up for you as I would for anyone. And I always marvel at people who have the emotional and, I don’t know, the social bandwidth to do that. My God, I barely want to do that for 5 people, let alone 300 million people.

Allison:

Yeah. She prioritizes her fans, and I did a quick Google search of “What can we learn from Taylor Swift in business,” and across the board, articles like Forbes even, there’s an article by Tony Robbins, one of the common themes was that she prioritizes her fan base. And when businesses do that to their consumers, they also have have buy-in, right? Taylor Swift seems to know there’s no Taylor Swift without her audience. At least as big as she is, those awards don’t exist without her fan base, and she knows that. I think it was in 2019 as well, she did, I think she called it Swiftmas instead of Christmas, which is very cheeky, and sent a bunch of fans gifts for Christmas, which I don’t know. Do any of your favorite artists do anything like that, Ren?

Ren:

No.

Allison:

Do you ever get a Christmas present from whoever you listen to?

Ren:

No. No, I do not. And I shudder to think at what kind of presents they would send. If we were to bring this down to the ground level and if someone’s some leader and they’re leading a smaller team or they’re managing a restaurant, what does it look like to put their audience first? Does that mean the customer walks in the door? Or if I’m a manager, is my audience my staff? Or how do we put that for a ground level to someone who maybe doesn’t have an audience of thousands of people per se?

Allison:

Yeah, I think if we can find ways to translate what she does to the workplace, the one thing that comes up for me immediately that CCL’s research has found is that employees at the workplace want to feel a sense of connection at work, and that when they do have that connection, there’s an environment of respect and trust that’s fostered. And then your consumer or your client or your customer can also feel that too. And of course, with that comes so many benefits to the organization and the individual. Some of the research has found that stress decreases; innovation, team effectiveness increases; employees even report being sick less frequently, sick days in general are lower, and so on. But I think creating the environment at the organization, I predict, would then translate to your consumer as well.

Ren:

Yeah, absolutely. I resonate with that. I think that makes sense. I find that when we think about what authenticity looks like for you, I feel like Taylor’s been on a life journey to answer that question for herself. And so you don’t have to be available like she is to her fans or the people that like you at work, whoever’s listening. You don’t have to do a one-to-one, but I think starting to explore for yourself what showing up looks like for you, how you want to show up. What we talk, too, at CCL is this difference between reputation and brand. Reputation is what you’re known for. Brand is what you want to be known for. The idea is to close that gap, because you could want to have the best brand, but if people know you as something else, then good luck. So first thing I think that she continues to do is to qualify what she stands for.

Allison:

Yeah. And you said she’s been on a journey to discovering that herself. How do you know that?

Ren:

Well, just from watching her from the outside, and then as we make her a target of exploration, starting to review her life a little bit. I mean, one of the things that I think really stood out for me, and stands out for me still, is something that I would call composure under pressure. I mean, in 2009, remember Kanye jumped on the stage to yell at the audience and the world for letting Taylor Swift get a video music award on MTV for the best video of the year or something like that?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Kanye jumps on the stage and yells that this is a mistake; Beyonce should have won. And as you likely know, in the documentary, it’s revealed that she was a big fan of Kanye’s. And she was just a kid. I mean, she was born in ’89, she was almost 20, but I guess she was technically 19. And I know that was really hard for her, because I guess, too, that she had to retreat into herself, and to safe spaces after that, just to make sense of it all. But for her to not be poisonous or toxic after that is just really interesting. And so I’d say that the beginning of her journey is just a young person who barely knows what their world looks like, is wildly famous already, winning awards, and then someone you really care about as an idol and as a colleague blasts you in public, just the sense-making, I think. She’s been able to turn that happening and I think into some of the pillars she stands for today.

Allison:

Yeah. And on that note, and so many others, I asked you, that was a bit of a leading question because people do know that she’s been on a bit of a journey, and that’s because she’s relatively transparent about —

Ren:

I get what you were doing there.

Allison:

… what she’s experiencing. And of course there was a documentary made, right, about her. And as far as I understand it, she had a lot of say in what went into that, and wanted her fans and her viewers to really see the truth inside of what’s happening in her life, and she’s willing to share those parts of her. And when I think about authenticity, what does it mean to be authentic as a leader? Part of it is transparency. It doesn’t mean that you have to tell the world everything that’s going on with you. But her struggles as an artist and balancing her desire to advocate for others is something that I find to be truly fascinating that she’s willing to share with her people, and then they get to know her. Again, it’s that sense of belonging. Again, her fans don’t know her, but you do feel like you’re part of something bigger when you see into who somebody is as a leader or a person.

Ren:

Well, what a great segue because when I think about Taylor and advocacy, it’s something else that I think we have to explore. And another reason why we’re looking at her today is she’s got millions of millions of people who follow her. I mean, I think I just looked today at the stats, something like 347 and some change million people follow her between Instagram and Twitter.

Allison:

Oh, wow.

Ren:

So she’s got some reach. But it’s interesting, when we look at celebrity or athletes, there’s a tension that they always got to navigate where some of the world wants to hear their point of view. Some of the world wants them to keep their mouth shut. And for a lot of Taylor’s career, she was in the “keep your mouth shut” category. Because frankly, I guess for maybe a long time, it’s not always the safest place. The pendulum swings back and forth between what’s safe for celebrities to speak to. But maybe before we zoom back into Taylor, pausing and just looking at that paradigm. What do you think? What’s the right of a celebrity or an athlete? What’s their role or their responsibility in speaking out in leadership roles?

Allison:

Gosh, I probably have an unpopular opinion here. I think they can do and say whatever they want, just like you and I can. There are people who will say, “But you’re a role model to my kids.” And sure, but you’re also a parent to your kids. I think there’s a balance there. And it’s gray, so it’s very gray, right? Yeah, that’s my answer. What about you?

Ren:

Yeah, probably the constant tension between art and artist. I think that if I was someone who believed that artistry needs to stay in the realm of art, and take the product as such, but I’m probably aligned with you that the person is the artist and they’re allowed to exhibit and inhabit their own points of view. And so, I think, we live in a society as such that I have no qualms with an athlete or a musician speaking on the world they inhabit. And talk about me fighting against a tidal wave. If I did, 345 million people would remind me about how minuscule my point of view is.

So I think I’m probably most interested in this idea because we talk DAC at CCL, right? Direction, alignment, commitment. And what we’re really talking about there is the outcomes of the social process of leadership. You’ve heard us say this before, listener, but you are likely not the chief executive officer of your organization listening to this, and you’re still a critical leader in the organization. And so when we think about the social process of leadership and her involving that, I think as art and artists, she’s leaning into her social weight and involving people in this conversation of where we get to lead each other. We can’t just wait on others to lead us.

Allison:

Yeah. And I want to back up a little too, because I think this was in the documentary, if not a recent interview, that she was very aware that when she decided to speak out against certain politics that were important to her, and certain groups that she felt she wanted to support, she was aware of the risk. And so I think that her fan base probably continued to support her because of her honesty and transparency. And so, as long as she or celebrities rather are not harming people, just clarifying here, then I do think they should be able to say and communicate what they want, their point of view. But you’re right, she has a way of “leading” that involves her fan base. Again, I keep going back to this, but it’s very rare that you see that at the workplace.

You already translated, but leadership is a social process, and it’s regardless of position. We know that our organization is successful because everybody acts as a leader. And so if we back out of that, how do you get people to get used to that culture if that’s not the culture of your organization?

Ren:

I think it probably … proof in the pudding. I’m going back to your authenticity example, Taylor through action demonstrates her connection through her fandom. And I think in those spaces, if you really want to create a culture where people can engage in emergent leadership where they may not have a title or even a responsibility that comes up to decision-making, but you enable them to feel capable in doing so, then maybe that’s just, create the practice where someone does it and they don’t get in trouble for it. Or start to go slow, where you build the space to get that kind of feedback where you create the spaces for social leadership. And I think that’s what Taylor Swift has done when she engages or stands up to injustice, or whether it’s against her or around the world, it’s this opportunity to say, “Hey, Swifties or anyone who’s a fan of mine, I’m getting off the sidelines. If you agree with me, come join me.” And that’s an interesting, I think, motivational perspective. It seems to be working for her amongst her peers and the fans.

Allison:

Yeah. And again, back to the transparency piece too, she said in an interview, it was a few years ago, she said … I’m going to paraphrase here. She said, “It wouldn’t be right if I publicized some post that said how much I support and love the LGBTQ+ community, and then I voted against them, or I didn’t use my voice to try to encourage people to vote. Because I have this platform, I want to support that group.” And I think it might have been her dad (if I’m wrong, I’m sorry, Dad!), but I think it might have been her dad who really encouraged her not to do that. And again, back to that authenticity and bravery too. She said, “No, I’m doing it. I’m going to do it.” And she’s still here and thriving, so it’s okay. Yeah.

Ren:

I think Dad ran security, right? Isn’t that the story? He’s like, “I’m the one who puts bulletproof glass on your truck. I care.” And I think that’s something too. I had it down. It’s maybe her willingness to stand up for what she believes. And then leaders, as you were hearing us, as we were reflecting earlier, Taylor Swift has an ability to identify what she cares about that enables her to stand up for what she believes. And there’s a lot of instances in her career to do that. One I found most fascinating is this tension between, what are they called, Taylor’s Versions. So Taylor Swift had her masters and she was part of the record label, Big Machine. She moved to Universal, but in 2019, Big Machine, the record label, was sold to Scooter Braun, the name. He’s a talent manager. He manages many, many artists, one of whom is Kanye West.

And then Taylor Swift said, “Hey, since Big Machine’s going out of business, it’d be great if I could have my masters. Let’s do a deal.” Braun said, “No, you’re not getting your masters,” and he sold them off to a different firm in 2020. So Taylor said, “Okay. Well, here’s what I’m going to do.” And in 2021, she released her own rerecorded versions of all those songs, hoping to that that any licensing or any deals would be made toward her because she’s the artist and creator. That’s that connection to Spotify or Apple Music that I was saying earlier, she’s probably invested in that idea of artists being recognized. But too, just an interesting idea that there’d be so many places along the way where the system says no to you, and you look around and you’re like, okay, well, what could I do? What am I supposed to do? Randomly rerecord all those albums? And someone said, “Yeah.” And Taylor said, “Okay, I’m going to do it.”

Allison:

All right.

Ren:

Yeah. So I was like, as a leader, as you aim to qualify what you care about, being willing to stand up against it, even against the torrent of millions and millions of Kanye West stans, who would try to tear you down and belittle you because of him I think is really interesting.

Allison:

Yeah. And her perspective on that too, she said, again, paraphrasing something along the lines of, “In this day and age, people get fired up about one thing on a Tuesday, and then by Thursday they’re fired up about something new, so that’s why I’m going to stand my ground.” And she’s right about that. She is right about that. News trends, stories, come and go pretty quickly. So there’s an amount of bravery and courage that I ascribe to her, and also consistency. When you think about, you’ve mentioned brand and reputation, which is funny because I think she has an album album called Reputation. Anyhow, I’m pretty sure. And she’s been very consistent in how she presents herself to the world since she was what? What did you say? 14 or 13 is when she … She was quite young.

Ren:

She got her first deal at 14, first Platinum record at 16.

Allison:

Yeah, so we’ll just call it 16 is probably when she was known to the masses, and she’s been pretty consistent about how she shows up, and what she writes about, and what she’s communicating, and how she behaves as a businessperson, and what her expectations are too — which is also important in leadership, is clarifying those expectations, right? Like, okay, well, this is my music, so I’m going to go ahead and rerecord it. And she’s also acknowledged the privilege that she has in the ability to do that. But yeah, it comes back to knowing who you are, what you want to present to others, and being consistent in doing so, and transparent when there’s an obstacle.

Ren:

And I’d say maybe my last big trait for her that I really resonate with, too, is that tension between consistency and reinvention, because she’s been consistent and true to herself, but she’s not stale.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

She makes new things. She’s an actor as she diversifies her own portfolio. So this willingness to investigate yourself and then say, I’m shifting my course, or I’m adjusting, or I’m growing. That space for growth that she enables for herself is something that I’ve got to encourage you as a leader, and then you too, as someone who is being led, to grow. And to be in environments that enable you to grow, and to create environments that enable growth. And so she seems to been able to cultivate that within herself, that idea of reinvention. And so maybe the thing that bubbles up to the top for me out of all these things is composure. It’s standing up. But it’s this willingness to support her growth and stand up for that too.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I don’t know. What’s one thing that rises the top for you? I’m sorry, I feel like I interrupted you.

Allison:

Well, first I’m going to respond to what you said and then I’ll tell you.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

It’s an interesting parallel to business, too. And again, it’s not a direct parallel, but you could think about it, too, as if you are a business owner and you have a product or you sell a product, responding to the market, and responding to what’s happening in the market, and what your consumer wants. And again, I don’t think she necessarily … well, actually, I don’t know. But her music, as far as I understand it, is a lot of personal storytelling. And so it seems as if her product has stayed consistent in terms of what she’s delivering, but the story changes. Again, maybe I need to check myself on that, but that’s how I understand her music to be, is pretty consistent storytelling.

So again, transferring that to the workplace, you can have a product and be pretty grounded in what that product is, so long as you keep, to your point, evolving and shifting to the needs of what people want and people are asking for and the market demands, et cetera. She used to get teased a lot for writing heartbreak songs. I can think of one. She wrote a song about John Mayer a while ago, and people teased her about that, and then she just didn’t respond to it. She just kept going. And I appreciate that about her as well. That was real of her.

Ren:

Well, what I love about what you’re reflecting there is something that resonates. Not only is she responding to the market, but she responds to herself.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I think she’s really good at recognizing where she wants to go and she responds to the market, but she doesn’t cower do it, or is that right? Kowtow? Cower to it? Help me out, world, if you’re yelling at us.

Allison:

She doesn’t cater to it.

Ren:

She doesn’t cater to it, but she caters to it a little bit, but she’s not slave to it, maybe.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

She doesn’t let it lord over her, and I think that’s an important discernment too, like you were saying, in that last example, where people get on her about making a love song and her response is zero response. She’s like, “I’m going to do me, dude. And by the way, can I point to all the things that Ren said at the top about my successful career?” She’s like, “Suck an egg, whatever.” And I guess maybe you have that position because you’ve been kicking ass for a decade. But I’m always astounded by her ability to be like, well, this is at least my true north for now, and I’m going to stick to it.

Allison:

And I saw a clip of her this morning. My phone must have been catching on to me.

Ren:

Listening to us.

Allison:

So it sent me a clip on social media of her being interviewed by, I don’t know who, someone. And she says, again, paraphrasing, she says something along the lines of her desire is to stop being apologetic for who she is as a human. And she says something like —

Ren:

Amen, sister.

Allison:

… “You’re criticizing me for the house that I live in, that I bought with my money based on the hard work that I did, and that I will continue to do, so no, I’m not going to sit down.” And I just appreciate that she worked very hard for what she has and continues to be who she is. So I think you’re right. There’s a delicate balance of being the leader that you are and standing in those truths and also responding to those around you. You asked me, though, what’s top of mind, and what was top of mind going into this conversation was her connection to her fan base and how it does, to a lot of Swifties, feel like a community. And I think when leaders are empowered to focus on a culture and the environment in that way, in similar ways that she cares for herself first, she also cares for her fan base and shows that she does, and she’s more effective that way.

And I think in the workplace, a leader can be more effective that way by caring for themselves first. We talk about this a lot, self-awareness: What am I bringing to the table? What do I want to bring to the table? Am I doing that? And then they have space to be more impactful for others. So as individuals on their teams, the organization becomes more successful too. And sometimes as an organization, you can even impact a community around you, and I think Taylor Swift certainly does this. But what our research has found is that leaders can do this in 4 ways, and it does start with that self-awareness and self-compassion too, which a lot of people find to be challenging. And only from there can you prioritize a climate of respect and psychological safety.

Another key piece of that as a leader is the ability to expand your perspective and say, I’m not in the LGBT community, but I wonder what it is they’re facing. I wonder what life is like for them. And the ability to broaden your perspective and really seek to understand others. And then from there, take meaningful action like we’ve seen Taylor Swift do. So that’s really what stood out to me. And if you have seen her documentary, then you’ll see that she’s done that. But I think there’s a good translation to the workplace and those 4 behaviors.

Ren:

Yeah, she’s interesting. She’s a super interesting character. I think her career has been really interesting to watch. And I think part of the reason why we wanted to talk about her now, or at least why I wanted to talk about her, is we look around at these public figures and start to diagnose some of the actions or behaviors that they make or that they take, the things they say or do, and just the access to people they have. I asked you a question earlier where you stood on the “Should artists speak up or not?” And I honestly feel like people who say they shouldn’t are people who are frightened for them to get into the fray because of the posture that they have, the box that they can stand on, the podium, and how many people will listen.

So there’s a lot of things I’m interested to see about what happens next, and there’s some interesting test cases for her around decisions she’s made, but also interested to see where her career goes, and if we’ll be doing another profile on her, or maybe a more precise profile on her later in life. But as you think about her future, what’s next around either leadership or Taylor Swift? Are you curious to see anything? Anything that we should be looking out for?

Allison:

With Taylor Swift?

Ren:

Yeah. Are you curious to see things that she’ll say or do that either further stabilize who she is, or you think, what does the next reinvention of T. Swift look like?

Allison:

Okay, there are 2 things that come to mind for me. So, after we decided we were going to talk about Taylor Swift, I of course did the Googling and started investigating what is a Swiftie? What are the Swifties up to? Her fans, right? So right now, the trend is that the Swifties think that there are hidden messages within her lyrics that are telling about who she is, and that she might be coming out with some more information about who she is as a human being. Now, I’m not Swiftie, so I can’t speak to that directly, but I am curious to see if she decides to use her voice in any way in 2024, given that it’s an election year. I’d be curious to see if she replicates that. What about you?

Ren:

Yeah. I’m similarly curious about that. How much more will she put her voice behind the things she cares about? She endorsed Joe Biden in 2020, and so for whatever that is or however you feel about that, she’s likely going to do something similar for whomever she endorses again. So I’m curious to see how people react to it, because her fandom’s split on her decision to do that. You have 330 million followers, when you think about America, you’re like, okay, there’s a lot of red and a lot of blue in those followers, so not everyone’s going to agree with her.

I’d say another curiosity I have, too, is this battle that she’s throwing as an artist with those re-recorded songs of hers.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

As a good news, I think I was reading Taylor’s Version, either a playlist from all of those songs or those re-released albums, those were one of those most streamed albums on Spotify ever. So if her goal was to have her IP, her music, or her masters, be honored as such, it seems to be working out. But it’d be curious to see if that holds true. And then will artists say, Well, screw you. If you don’t give my masters, I’m going to make my own? So those things I would like to keep an eye on and see what happens next.

Allison:

So, one last thing that just now just came up for me when you were speaking is that 300 and whatever million people who follow her, right? You’re probably right, politically, there’s probably a lot of different opinions in that 300 million people, and they still followed her after that.

Ren:

Interesting.

Allison:

It’s a bold move. Well, you don’t see it often. You don’t see artists often endorse candidates. Not very common to outright endorse a candidate like that. And so maybe this’ll be another episode, but it just makes me think again about trust. And when you trust somebody, how much more likely you are to not abandon somebody just because of their opinion on certain topics? So perhaps that’s a conversation for another time, but she seems to have gained the trust of her Swiftie fans for sure. So things for leaders to think about: How can you produce more trust in your organization? And what would that mean for you? What would that mean for your teams? So that’s the last thing that I’m going to leave you with, Ren. What are your lingering thoughts for our listeners?

Ren:

Well, I love the ending where we started, because I think that trust comes from that authenticity, and the authenticity demonstrated to people that Taylor Swift is just like you. She loves, she hurts, she’s happy, she’s a human. And I realize that that wasn’t my takeaway for this episode, but I’m reminded as we do all of this work, we’re going to be better off when we look at each other as people. And if we could get close to treating people like the people we care about, man, oh man, wouldn’t it look different? And so I know it’s not always easy to do that, and so then maybe my major takeaway and something that I think Taylor can tell all of us is, I can understand why you might be afraid to use your voice, but don’t be afraid to use your voice.

And I know now in America, it’s not safe for a lot of us to use your voice, whatever side of the aisle you’re on, it’s dangerous out there to say your truth. And what I mean, though, is speak your truth with kindness and generosity. Don’t be afraid to use your voice to stand up for others. Don’t be afraid to stand up for yourself. And I think, in spirit, if we’re looking at each other like those we care about, then it’s probably going to serve us not to be afraid of using our voice. So that’s maybe my last one there, Allison.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s well said. I think that’s a great place to end and appreciate the conversation and just love that we were able to formulate some leadership lessons around Taylor Swift. And to our listeners, as always, you can find our show notes and all of our podcasts on ccl.org. And a special thank you to Emily and Ryan who work behind the scenes to make our podcast happen, and to our listeners and our Swifties who are listening, and maybe even Taylor Swift herself —

Ren:

Taylor.

Allison:

… find us on LinkedIn, let us know what you think. Let us know what you took away from this episode, and we’ll look forward to tuning in with you next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everyone. Taylor, find Allison on TikTok!