Interview Transcript

Ren:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership’s happening, and what’s happening with leadership.

Pew, pew, pew, pew. It’s still manager madness, Allison. Although the championship is over, we’ve got our final winner, but we’re still slogging through where we’re headed. And one by one we’re discussing public figures, some fictional, some real, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

Welcome back to the Rosebud Motel, everyone, in Schitt’s Creek. Yes, we are talking about Schitt’s Creek and the Roses. Now, it took me a while to get into the show, but when I did, we really couldn’t stop watching it. It’s so heartwarming, so funny, so unique. So Allison and I are going to give it a shot at unpacking the quirks and strategies and surprising wisdom behind the leadership styles of so many of these beloved characters, not only through the lenses of the Roses — Johnny, Moira, David, and Alexis — but also some of those other amazing characters in the Creek, looking at their unique approaches to leadership, and what we might learn about some of those weird and awesome people.

Now, Johnny Rose, whether he’s the former video store tycoon or a small town entrepreneur, his journey from riches to rags reveals a steadfast leader who values integrity and resilience and family, I think. Or Moira, with her eccentric matriarchy and a penchant for wigs and the flair for the dramatic, her style might just look like theatrics and no substance, but really Moira is a leader of heart, of expectation, of high standards, I think. Even her ability to rally the town for the musical and her stint on the town council shows how her leadership can inspire through vision and action.

And then we’ve got the awesome kids, David, with his eye for detail and his unwavering standards, maybe even exemplifying some transformational leadership. And don’t forget a little bit Alexis, and her quirky “entrepreneurialness” and her almost driven target on the goal, and maybe not being distracted, for ill or for better and anything else. But it’s not just the Roses, characters like Stevie Budd, characters like Jocelyn and Roland and Ronnie. We’re going to talk about a lot of them and explore some of that wealth of leadership wisdom.

So welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what do you think of roadside motels? And when’s the last time you stayed at a Motel 6?

Allison:

Well, I stayed at a roadside … Let me restart that, because I kind of stayed at a roadside motel when I was in my 20s. I can’t remember how old I was, but I was driving from Colorado to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for my sister’s wedding, by myself with my dog in tow. And no plan, really. I just figured I’d drive until I got tired, which in retrospect, looking back, that was not the smartest decision.

I found a hotel, once I got sleepy, pulled off to the gas station first where somebody approached my car. It was 1:00 in the morning. It was not a super safe feeling. And I stayed at a roadside motel. And I say that I kind of did because I went into the room and just had that sinking gut feeling of, “This doesn’t feel right.” And so I slept in my car, and the next morning got up and used the shower and left.

Ren:

Oh, wow, I don’t know if the Roses … I don’t know if Johnny would be thrilled that that would be your experience of the Rosebud Motel.

Allison:

No, I don’t think so. What about you, when’s the last time you stayed at a roadside motel?

Ren:

Man, I don’t know if I’ve ever stayed at a roadside motel. Especially, I can’t even, recently, I can’t think of it. There might be something of Moira in me, or maybe the general Roses, where it’s like now that I’ve earned my way and been able to see and access some finer things, maybe I um, I’m not like, “Let me stay at an Econo Lodge.” I think maybe I stayed at a Red Roof Inn, yes, probably, or a Best Western in my early 20s.

But a Best Western’s like a weird motel, hotel vibe, especially where we went, which was in Canada, and they have an amusement park area. Really fitting, because the show was filmed in Canada. So I think that’s super interesting. And that’s where the motel is, in Toronto or Ontario. But anyway, that’s probably my answer. But despite our trips to and from hotels or motels, maybe when you think about the Rosebud Motel, what would you be excited about if you had to work there, and what might you be worried about?

Allison:

Well, it depends at what point I’m working there, who’s in charge, has Mr. Rose taken over yet?

Ren:

Well, yes. Yes, he has. He, and well, he’s in the midst of partnering with Stevie, so it’s not like the “well-ironed machine” that it turns into in Season 6. Think like Season 2.

Allison:

Okay. Oh, gosh. I think I would be excited because there’s enthusiasm. There’s enthusiasm, well, with Johnny. I don’t know about Stevie being enthusiastic; however, her historical knowledge of not only the motel but the area, partnered with Johnny’s business savviness and enthusiasm, and maybe even Alexis’s ability to brand, it’s almost like it has a startup vibe to it. That would be fun.

Concerns, I mean, “Do we have it in us to turn this place around?” If you’ll remember, it’s barely operable, right? Some of the showers don’t work. There’s leaks. You can hear through the walls. They don’t have enough towels half the time. The location maybe is not ideal for traffic that you might need for a motel to thrive. What about you, what’d make you excited?

Ren:

Yeah, that’s interesting. I like Johnny, I find him really interesting. I think it’d be funny to watch he and Stevie interact. And I think it’d be funny to have Stevie as my boss, too, because she seems pretty chill. And even though I know she stepped more into her role as leader, I think being around those 2 and then just some of the characters … I mean front row seats to the mayor on the regular.

So at least if you work there, you know you’re in the political know-how of Schitt’s Creek. I’d probably be worried that … man, yeah, I like working for real buttoned-up organizations, and things where it’s tight and it’s interesting, and where I don’t have to be a plumber and also something else.

And so, I probably wouldn’t be super thrilled at having many, many job duties outside of my job description, but maybe that’s some of what we can talk about in the context of the work and things like that. But before we go into the Roses though, I’d love to talk more around some of the other weird characters in that world. And so, when you think about people outside of the core family, what’s one of the first people that pops up for you?

Allison:

Oh, either Jocelyn or Roland. I think Jocelyn, I suppose, is … I mean she eventually becomes more of a primary character, but she’s not in the family, and there’s something very sweet and wholesome about her, but also very direct. And I like how she … to me she models that you can be kind and direct at the same time. I don’t know if you will remember, there’s an episode … and I don’t remember why, I think Moira wanted to get a haircut or something like that. So Jocelyn took her to her hairstylist who gave her the same exact haircut as Jocelyn, and it was so funny.

And I pulled out a quote from Jocelyn because I wanted to get it right. And what she says is, “I know you hate your hair, Moira, almost as much as you hate this town, but there’s a possibility you could be here a really long time. And if I could offer you something, the people here are just trying to help you, and there’ll be days when your wigs need conditioning, or you’ll need a ‘fashiony’ blouse because you shrank it in the dryer and you’ll have to go to Janine’s, or you’ll get a shirt at the Blouse Barn, just like the rest of us. And I would hate for that day to catch you by surprise.” So there’s something very kind about how she’s just very direct and helpful at the same time.

Ren:

Yeah, I think that’s something really interesting about Jocelyn, and maybe it’s the way that they wrote her, at least that she was able to manage her … like if we’re taking her as a real person, she was able to manage her emotions in a way where she could be totally honest and totally kind, I think. It’s like we talk about in the classroom, you don’t have to just be mean if you want to be honest.

And in order to be nice, you don’t have to lie to people. And I think, for a lot of the time, especially in the beginning of the show, I was kind of reading Jocelyn as someone who’s, like the Roses are always throwing barbs at them. Like the Schitts and Roland and Jocelyn, like when they go over to their house for the first time or the second time or whenever they’re there, they’re trying to be high context funny things.

And I think Jocelyn’s super smart, but she picks up on it. But maybe she’s so grounded in her, like what she’s there to do, which is love her family, love her community, that she’s not bothered by it. But then able to be honest without … like she wasn’t yelling at Moira, she was just kind of saying, “Hey, heads up, dude, a word for the wise, manage yourself a little bit better.” So yeah, something really about her that I think grows on me. She’s really charming and wise, I think.

Allison:

Yeah, I agree, she is wise. And I’m sure you’ve heard leaders in our worlds say this, if not our clients, but elsewhere, leaders around the globe, especially in the US, will say something like, “Well, I tell it like it is, and I’m very direct.” And a lot of times that’s judgment, it turns into judgmental comments, and that’s not necessarily “telling it like it is.” I would prefer Jocelyn’s style, like, “You are here,” to your point, she is very grounded and she says it in the kindest way, “You’re here, you’re going to be here. People are trying to help you, so let them,” is essentially what she’s saying. So I appreciate that level of candor, groundedness, and honesty and support. It’s very supportive, too.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think that’s something about her character, and I love what you’re citing, because so often I think there’s this tension between being accepted as who you are, or people saying, “Take it or leave it.” And then using that as an excuse for being a total a-hole. And I think a lot of leaders do that, like, “Oh, I’m not conflict averse” or, “I’m just a rough personality; that’s just the way it is.” And I think there’s probably a polarity that needs to be managed, like a both/and: yeah, you’re allowed to be a hard-ass, but also you can’t just be that thing because sooner or later that well runs dry.

And so, I like that kind of space where the both/and. I think Jocelyn really speaks to that well, like just a lot of care and a recognition of, “Maybe certain things aren’t perfect, but we’re here together. We’re here working towards something.” The strong and connected teams. I think she might be the best example of the kind of character that can keep a team together and help them ride through the interesting waves of high-character people.

Allison:

And I agree with you, and earlier you’d mentioned the possibility of having Stevie as your boss might be okay with you. So say more about that.

Ren:

Well I find Stevie’s absolutely one of my favorite characters, and I think especially, too, in her exchanges with David early in their relationship. Maybe her communication style, for instance, may be less forward than Jocelyn, probably to do with less wisdom or exchanges with people. But the conversation about the wine after David and her first get together, and she’s like, “I thought you like white wine.” He goes, “Oh, yeah, sometimes, or I’ll do red or maybe even a rosé.” And I think it’s funny that Stevie and I would probably be able to say a lot with not a lot of words.

Allison:

Yes, and I appreciate … I want to get back to what you said about the wine in a second, but what you said about Stevie is, to me, I find her to be so hilarious, and she’s very dry. I know not a lot of people relate to that type of humor, but she is very, very dry. And there’s something for me around, I think one of my values too is that there’s joy and fun in the work that I do. I mean, we spend a lot of time at work, and I think it would be fun to work with her.

And she just has the best one-liners. And she says to David at one point, “What you lack in most things, you make up for in unsubstantiated confidence.” Which is just, she’s got the best one-liners. And their back-and-forth is so comical, and it works. And I understand that not everybody relates to that type of humor, and some people find it to be mean, but I think she’s very funny.

Ren:

Well, and I think she’s an interesting example of what we were just talking about, about that both/and of maintaining who you are and also growing. I think Stevie maybe has one of the largest arcs in the show. And it’s really interesting to see her start to step into herself. And I know we’re going to talk about Johnny later, but something about his leadership style is that he saw something inside of Stevie that Stevie didn’t. And by the end of the show, Stevie saw more in her herself than she ever could have imagined.

And sometimes I think that’s a leader’s job is, you don’t have to be mean to people, but you could recognize something inside of them and let that create an environment for that to grow. And so I think Stevie’s dry and irreverent, and I mean if you can’t take it, she could maybe look and sound a little bit mean, but then I think she really changed. I think she changed in recognition of her own skills and ability. I think she changed in maybe still being funny, but not always at the expense of others.

Allison:

Yes. Yes, agreed. And there are some really tender moments with her where she, at the start, might seem cold or aloof, or maybe detached even. And there’s some moments where they just pan to her, and you can see how proud she is of the motel and of the work that she’s done. And maybe that happens a little later in the series, but you are right, I think there is a serious growth with her, where at the beginning she’s a little bit in over her head, and she doesn’t really care that much. And then I believe it’s maybe her aunt who dies, or her great aunt, and gives her the motel. I don’t know if you remember that. And she’s feeling incredibly overwhelmed.

And then the family sort of steps in to help her. And when they have the new sign on the motel, I don’t know if you remember that. They put the sign up and they surprise her, and she doesn’t really say much, or she might’ve made a snide comment, I can’t remember, a Stevie comment. But then they pan back to her, and she’s standing there by herself, and she’s a little teary-eyed and it’s very sentimental. And there’s a lot of pride. You feel a lot of pride in what she’s doing as really a business owner.

Ren:

Yeah, I reflect on her fondly. And I think there’s something about those characters that they give the Schitt’s Creek vibe to, or like, “Hey, Roses, there’s other ways to look, and maybe this place, this little corner of the world is really a microcosm of the world.” And I think they did such a good job of that. And there’s something so, too, like normal and engaging about these human experiences, but not overly dramatic. And as you were talking about Stevie, sometimes too, I feel like she doesn’t play the Jim Halpert role for us, where at some point she can kind of be our point of view, just a normal person in a small town who sees these people as kind of like, “I’m not really invested in making you all feel worse than you already do,” but kind of looks past the camera and thinks, “Is anyone else seeing this?”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And so there’s something around her kind of self-awareness I think, too, that leads to her being an effective leader. Because I think part of her, you allude to, when it’s formal that the hotel’s going to be hers, and before she starts to partner with Johnny, I think there’s that fear of, “Can I do this?” And sometimes it’s almost like the awareness of what we don’t know is a sign of wisdom. And luckily for her, she was able to push past her fear. I know it can be paralyzing for some. But yeah, Stevie’s one of my favorites.

Allison:

Yeah, me too. And I want to come back to something you said a moment ago, which was the scene where they’re shopping for wine and David says, “I like the wine and not the label.” We are recording during Pride month. So happy Pride. I don’t know if this will come out this month, we’ll see. And it’s a reminder that you can support and celebrate the queer community in other months as well.

However, the show does a really fantastic job of showing how the queer community can exist without sensationalizing it. There is no homophobia in that show at all. Digging a little bit further, one of the best examples is the one that you brought up where David said he likes the wine and not the label. And that one-liner is really indicative of the inclusion of people from all walks of life in the show, including the kinds of folks that live in that town specifically, too.

So when David and Patrick start their relationship, that show models so beautifully a relationship between 2 people who really care about each other and love each other, without focusing on the label, and without sensationalizing it so much to the point where there’s violence and trauma, and it just in some ways shows what’s possible. And I think that’s something that’s very meaningful as well.

Ren:

Yeah, there was always … when I was watching the show too, and I think being conditioned by modern media and the tension, because being I think storytellers and professionals in this space, too, I think we start to identify arcs and we’re like, “Okay, this is going to be a conflict area. You’ve got to write a story to create conflict.” And I was always kind of dreading the inevitable gay conflict in the show, and I was so grateful that it was just normal people stuff still.

I mean, my favorite part … and I think it liberated them a lot. I love when they’re getting married and Patrick hires the masseuse for David, and they’re getting back together, he’s like, “Man, that was a really great massage, and I’ve never had one of those before. And that’s really wonderful.” I think, if you know you know. And Patrick’s like, “I don’t understand.” And he goes, “Well, what do you mean?” And then he tried to replay his mind back through it. But it was interesting, that wasn’t a derailer and it wasn’t one of those things, like I think in other spaces, where they were trying to lean into hyper-sensationalism.

Allison:

That is it.

Ren:

It just seemed like 2 people. And maybe, again, something that I love about this show, is 2 people who love each other, who accept each other and are so accepting of themselves that the only thing that they can really bemoan about that is just kind of the weird miscommunication, but no challenge on their partnership or their care for each other or anything like that. Yeah, they’re a fun combo.

Allison:

Yeah. And so many hilarious moments between them, and probably between everybody, that we could talk about. Another funny part, again, just how different the 2 of them are, Patrick and David, something that comes to mind where, it’s probably in the last season, where Patrick goes to get a spray tan and uses David’s punch card or whatever it is. And he comes back and he’s bright orange.

I don’t know if you remember that, but it’s just so funny how they navigate each other. It’s hilarious. And there’s even a really nice moment, I think, that can speak to people who are in the process of identifying their sexuality, where Patrick … I think there’s, and I’m not remembering what season it is, but they have their business and there’s a customer who comes in who it appears might be sort of hitting on Patrick.

And David said, “Why don’t you go out with him and just see. I know this is your first relationship with another man.” I’m paraphrasing. And it’s just a really nice, tender, accepting moment. And of course he ends up not going out with the guy, and it’s all romance and lovely between David and Patrick. But it’s just a nice reminder of things not being black and white I suppose.

Ren:

Yeah. And if you’re foreign to that culture, I could imagine someone standing on the periphery and be like, “Wait a minute, why would he suggest that he do that?” And I just think from an inclusive standpoint, if you’re listening, and you observe this kind of experience from the periphery, or you start to see someone on a show like this, or maybe you even witness a colleague or you hear … I think there’s space for, if you’ve got the emotional cachet in a relationship, to be like, “Hey, help me understand.” Because I don’t know if I would say to my wife, “Hey, go sleep with that other dude, and then we’ll just feel it out and then you can come back in.” And again, it’s just like this acceptance.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

And that’s so interesting, and if any of you are paying attention, it’s a big theme for me in this chapter of my life. But it’s really interesting. I think something about Patrick and his style and work, too, is that supportive, collaborative, accepting … like, just as he was getting to know David, and they’re getting the business license, and his availability and his helpfulness, it just seemed like something about “the best ability is availability,” an old sports adage. And I think Patrick’s kind of steady, he’s always there. And sometimes as a leader you can be steady, you can always be there, and it can make a difference.

Allison:

Yes, absolutely. Well, let’s jump people dramatically. What’s your take on Roland?

Ren:

On Roland. Yeah, right, talk about some male energies and their difference. Roland. I think, too, there’s something about him and Jocelyn where they both, they had to write them in a certain way where they were sort of obtuse.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

But I’d say Roland’s unconventional existence … man, I guess I’m just going to hit on this theme … maybe leaders, what I’m recognizing in Schitt’s Creek is that Roland was so okay with himself, that he was just always himself. And again, someone who was driven by family and community. He loved his town, and what the town stood for, regardless of what anyone else thought about it or badmouthed it, that was his town with his people. And there’s something about that recognition and acceptance of what’s yours, and how he is himself, that I think I’m spinning around. Yeah, he’s bumbling, but I like that about him.

Allison:

Yeah, you always know what’s on his mind.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

You always know he’s going to be very honest and sometimes very blunt. You’ll probably always know where you stand with him, and he shows that frequently in the show. And to your earlier point, there’s something about him and Jocelyn … and of course he’s the mayor, so there’s something about him and Jocelyn together that understand the political landscape of the community and how things work.

And there’s so many examples of Johnny wanting to do something and Roland sort of laughs at him, or maybe says something crass, and it’s just like, “That’s just not how it works here. It’s not how it works.” But perhaps the job, the only job that he takes seriously, it is when he becomes a father. So he tries to help out at the motel, and he’s not helpful at all. And then when he becomes a father, we sort of see an arc with him, too, where he really grows into that role and takes it very seriously.

Ren:

Well, yeah … I’m glad you brought that up because I forgot that he has an arc too, because remember, Mutt is his other son. And so it’s like his first relationship or his first child. And then you think about the things that, “I want to do different this time around.” And it’s interesting around you as leader or you as listener or you as parent or partner out there, anyone, this idea of like, “Well, this time around it’s going to be different.”

And I think there’s something interesting about letting yourself grow and trying new things, but I know that expectation and comparison are the mother and father of all pain. And so as you look backward and forward in your life, maybe comparing yourself is not necessarily the best, but grounding yourself in who you want to be and how you want to show up. I think Roland is a great example of that, who you want to be and how you want to show up.

And I think you just mentioned too, kind of like that Michael Scott moment where he may not be the most perfect person, but he knows his people and he knows his town, and he’s like, “Hey, Johnny, you can’t do that here because it’s not going to work. Trust me. Follow my lead.” And Johnny’s like, “I used to be a billionaire, a millionaire. What do you mean follow your lead?” So it’s really interesting, that awareness.

Allison:

Right. And it’s a perfect translation to the workplace, that arc, because I tell people a lot that, especially when you’re starting a new role or a new job in a new company, you need to understand the landscape and how the work gets done first. Yes, your skillsets are important, of course, and how the work gets done is perhaps the most important thing.

But I think a lot of the characters in the show, predominantly the Rose family, model having to make mistakes or failures that were not anticipated, and how to get back up from them. So I think the Rose family as a family is a good example of that. And then individually they all have their own routes to take in terms of starting over from scratch.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think before maybe we dive fully on the Roses, I want to give Ronnie a shout-out.

Allison:

Ronnie, yes.

Ren:

I think her character is another really interesting idea of this kind of straightforward existence. And Ronnie maybe is another aspect of us, like a normal person in a small town looking at all of this and just being like, “Okay, can we just be real pragmatic about everything?” And I think there’s something that, on the continuum, all the kind of leadership out there, the people who are really comfortable with change, and people who really want to maintain the way it used to be, and then this sort of Ronnie who’s tapped into doing what needs to work, when it needs to work. And so she cuts through the drama, I think, cuts through the politics, and is another example of a grounded person. So I just wanted to give a shout-out to Ronnie.

Allison:

Yes, shout out to Ronnie, and an apology, Mutt. I’m sorry to you, Mutt, I forgot that you were the son of Jocelyn and Roland. But back to Ronnie. You’re right, she is very pragmatic, especially when it, I mean when it comes to all things, when it comes to the community of Schitt’s Creek, and when it comes to the choir that they put together and how they assign roles. I remember an episode where Moira really wants a solo, I think, and she’s trying to just rely on her reputation of being in the acting world. And it’s Ronnie who says a version of, “You have to audition like the rest of us.” There’s some sort of fairness and practicality about her that she brings to the community as well.

Ren:

Yeah. [singing] Oh, Danny Boy ..

Allison:

Yes. This is now the second episode where we’ve got you singing. This is great.

Ren:

Yeah, well, I mean, it’s going to happen. I think it’s going to happen. Yeah, I just love that they continue to put themselves into these interesting positions. And maybe there’s so many things about the Roses that I find charming. And maybe it’s fitting to start with Moira, because I don’t know if she has as … she might have the most limited arc in the show, I think, but maybe she was the most self-aware, and so she had less distance to travel. I don’t know, what do you think?

Allison:

Well, I think there was some growth with her, because she was on a soap opera. That was her claim to fame, where she was on a popular soap opera. And then she gets to Schitt’s Creek and nobody knows who she is, and eventually she has to start back from square one, where she’s in a movie called the, what is it called? “The Crows Have Eyes,” I think, or something.

Ren:

Yeah, “The Crows Have Eyes III,” it’s the third one.

Allison:

And the location is somewhere in the middle of nowhere. She basically stays in a trailer, where she’s had been used to a very different lifestyle. So there is a sort of starting over from scratch for her that happens, in just a much different way. The one thing that we can appreciate about her is that she stays very true to her brand. So if we talk about personal branding, she’s got that down. I mean, they sort of all do, if you think about it, but she really does. She really, really does. And while she is sort of opposed to working in the motel, she does get a couple of wake-up calls where she has to help out. I don’t know if you’ll remember when she has to work at the front desk and there’s an older gentleman who comes in, and she thinks that she kills him. It’s just the whole … do you remember that episode?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So, I think she has some wake-up calls that are maybe a little bit more subtle, because she stays the path of the acting realm but has to learn how to start over again and rebuild her reputation.

Ren:

Yeah, I think you say something that I resonate with, is the idea that she never lost sight of her brand. And so, of all of the things, now granted the Schitts were able to — or the Roses, I keep calling them Schitts — the Roses were able to keep all of their clothing, which is their only bastion of their wealth. But Moira was committed, wigs and clothes and all. She never, never, never ended up buying a blouse from the Blouse Barn. She always had her thing. And so I think Moira might be a good example, for me, of someone who recognizes perpetual growth.

I think Moira, we learn about her that she was … before all the money came and they really lost sight of who they were, and she’s tried to be motherly, and you could see that growing with her kids. And David, I think in her relationship with David a little bit better, but … and then when she goes to the graduation with the Jazzagals for Alexis. And I can see her maybe, she reminds me of a lot of the CEOs that I get to meet and work with, where they’re at the tippy top of the mountain and they kind of lost sight of how long and how far and how challenging the path was. But when they get up there, they remember that people really matter to them.

And I think there’s moments where we see Moira step into a place, like even on that movie, she kind of helps the director who was feeling bummed out that he’s on some third-rate movie, and she kind of helps him make the best of it. And the movie does okay, for whatever, like a Sharknado-type movie that it is. So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if I see as much of her starting over as much as maybe she’s crystallizing the things that maybe she lost sight of, which really matters for her, which I think is her acting, and then Johnny.

Allison:

Right. And to some extent her relationship with her kids. There’s one episode where Alexis is like, “What’s my middle name? You don’t know my middle name.” And it’s comical. And then there’s another episode that always makes me think about feedback, and reiterating your point where I think it’s Jocelyn who gives her the feedback that she’s not approachable. And so she goes to David and she says it sort of like this, and it’s hard for her to get out.

She says, “I am approachable.” And David is like, “Is that a question? That sounds like a statement.” And they have sort of a nice, sarcastic-ish, because David is David, but a nice moment where she realizes how she’s coming off, and she hadn’t known that previously. So that’s what I mean where I think it’s a little bit more subtle for her is understanding how she appears to people and how people experience her, which can be difficult for a lot of people.

Ren:

Yeah, and that brings up for me, it just reminds me, these characters I think, and maybe I don’t know if the writers were trying to do this and all of a sudden it’s becoming clear for me, but she really struck the balance of recognizing like, “This is who I want to be, and sure, I might change some of it, but I’m still going to put an inflection in my voice. I’m still going to wear my wigs. I’m still going to wear this.” And so it’s like she really honored the polarities of, “This is who I am, but I don’t have to be an asshole the whole time.”

Allison:

Exactly.

Ren:

And that’s why they restarted at that place. And I think she’s kind of cool. Some of her edges softened, and I think that made some of her other parts of her shine brighter.

Allison:

And there’s one part, too, where she goes to a conference with Roland, and I’m not remembering what the conference is. Do you remember this episode? And she’s sort of like, people actually want to talk to her again, and she’s sort of the life of the party a bit. And I think that’s a reminder for her of that she can belong in other spaces where she’s felt so out of place.

Ren:

Yeah, I was wondering if it wasn’t at the small business owner award ceremony, because the motel was getting an award, but she was present or something, stepping in. I don’t know.

Allison:

I don’t remember, something like that. Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. I do remember a little bit Alexis, so.

Allison:

Yes. How could you forget?

Ren:

That is such a good bit. And even that actor’s story to pull ourselves out of the arc, talk about persistence, and talk about that Hollywood tale. I mean, I guess her house burned down, no money in her bank account. She was like, “This acting thing is not working. I’ve been doing it for years. It’s not happening, and I’m about to quit.” And then it’s that last moment where she gets this job and then, I mean, granted, I haven’t seen her do a lot more after this, but hey, if you strike gold with Schitt’s Creek, then so be it. So I think before we talk about Alexis, just that actor’s story is really interesting, a reminder to all of you that persistence pays. And maybe too, being okay with who you are and what you’re doing and how far you’ve come, like reveling in the journey, maybe that can help you just last enough to get your big break.

Allison:

And she’s turned into a pop culture icon from that show, talk about one-liners. And I saw an interview with her, and it may have been on Jimmy Fallon, I think, where he says to her, “Everybody knows,” and there’s so many memes and so many tweets, it’s all over pop culture of her saying, “Ew, David.” And she actually only says that in the show, I think she says it 2 times, but she always uses David’s name in a way that has that same inflection.

And so she’s forever, she is forever a pop culture icon in that respect, again, because of one-liners. And you’re right, sort of her as a human being comes full circle to who she is as a character, too, because she goes back to high school and finishes her GED and then goes to college, and then auditions for the show in the most comical way. So all of that sort of comes full circle, where they all just do this great job of building from scratch again, and reinventing yourself, and also staying who you are at the same time.

Ren:

Well, yeah, when I think maybe Alexis too, she’s one of those, I track her as one of the higher arcs, because part of her character I think was a lack of awareness of who she was. I think she was the money, she was the pretty girl being swept away on trips, even though sometimes it’s like she’s being kidnapped. But that’s how unaware she was, she would just joke about like, “Yeah, I feel like I was kidnapped by a Saudi prince or something.”

And then it’s less that she, for me, I think it’s less she was rebuilding and more like she was building. She was starting to create a foundation, and maybe that high school arc for her, and then doing that, and then getting the job. And then even being with Ted, to some extent, was sort of her doing all of that work that maybe a normal person might do in their teens and 20s. But she was so insulated from the world that she had to just not keep growing up, but just begin growing up.

Allison:

And her relationships, you see how she starts to value relationships in a different way, too. There’s a time where she bumps into some of her old friends, and I don’t remember if they’re passing through, I can’t remember what that is. And sort of her old life resurfaces, where one of the women who maybe is a business owner, I think, now I’m not remembering if it’s a branding agency or something like that, but one of the women says to her, confidentially or off to the side, “We have a job for you, and this other woman, we can’t stand her.” But they’re really nice to her at the same time. She starts to investigate, and you can see it on her face, she’s being very thoughtful about her relationships, and that’s a moment for her where she decides to take another path, and you see her start to value her relationship with, my goodness, I’m forgetting her name. Who’s the server at the restaurant that she becomes friends with? Twyla.

Ren:

Twyla.

Allison:

Twyla. Yes. And she takes Twyla out to the bars, and she starts to value her relationships in a much different way. And I think that’s a moment for her to, you’re right, consider what’s important and what shifts she needs to make or wants to make.

Ren:

Yeah. One big issue that I had with the whole Alexis thing was the storyline with Ted. I’m convinced that that guy pissed someone off. Because the way they wrote him out of the show, it just seemed like it didn’t make any sense to me.

Allison:

Oh, it made so much sense to me. But you keep going.

Ren:

No. All right, well, no, tell me what?

Allison:

Finish your sentence though, I didn’t mean —

Ren:

Were they just growing in that much of a different way? Because it seemed like they didn’t really need to break up. I know they broke up once, but then they broke up again, and I just don’t know why. But tell me more. You said it makes sense to you, I want to know.

Allison:

Well, so you had 2 people who were really coming into their own opportunities. And for Alexis … Ted was, to me, it seemed, very grounded in who he is and where he’s going with his career. And Alexis never really got the chance to be an independent human because, I mean it sounds like I’m feeling bad for people who are super wealthy, but big picture, she was never given the opportunity to grow on her own and be an independent human being, explore what she wanted to explore, dip her toes in the business waters, dip her toes in marketing and branding, and she never got that opportunity.

So that’s why I think it was a brilliant ending, because sometimes relationships end, and it’s not because one person was a jerk or did something awful. And I think that’s one of the reasons I like it so much, is that there wasn’t much that was trauma dumping or super sensationalized where, “Oh, so-and-so cheated.” Right? It’s just an indicator of sometimes things don’t work, and sometimes we have to choose ourselves. And it doesn’t mean that the other side, the partner, is right, wrong, or bad, it’s just that we’re moving in different directions.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, as you say that, and I tap back into the moment when I saw that, or tap back into what you’re saying, and I’m really resonating with it, yes, and maybe that’s part of this is her last growth step, which was to make a decision to start to mold this new being that she had been putting together alone, as opposed to then having another person there. So I think, yeah, it’s really thoughtful, and I think probably a lot of what was playing out.

Maybe I would just take exception about how quick it happened, like we never got involved in any of that narrative. There was never her reflecting on that or sharing it, it just sort of happened. But maybe that’s sort of what the show does. It doesn’t bang you over the head with stuff like that, and it kind of lets you deal and lets you enjoy it. And I think what you’re saying there is probably true about her, that now as the stories go, regardless of what, Season 6 ends, Alexis has a chance now to be the person that she might deserve to be.

Allison:

Yeah, or even wants to be with, prior to her knowing that. You hit the nail on the head already of her just exploring who she is, and without the money, without things being handed to her, without dating the Saudi prince, et cetera. And I really like that. And there’s one episode too, that I find to be so hilarious, when at the Blouse Barn, her and David pretend to be a lawyer, or Alexis specifically pretends to be a lawyer.

Do you remember that episode, where some company in Australia tries to buy the Blouse Barn name, and it’s Alexis who is like — it’s Alexis and David, but really Alexis who says, “No, I know how much this is worth.” She takes a little bit from her past to help out the owner of the Blouse Barn to get her to retire, which then she eventually gives money to David, which allows him to open the store. And it’s just like she has a good heart and you can tell that, she truly does want to help people. And while it’s probably not legal what she did, it was a really nice moment, and a hilarious moment as well.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean there’s plenty of gray areas, and I think one of the people who play as well in that gray is David. And it is interesting how, the evolution, these characters evolve, and then their decisions make an impact on them and then the world around them. And I think about David, I think about the last episode, and everyone’s leaving, but David, his life is there now. He’s got the Apothecary, he’s got his husband, and they’re going to exist.

And he and Johnny, I mean they might be my, like … he, Johnny and Stevie are probably my absolute favorite characters. And probably David just elevates everyone else so much when he’s with them, and how just dry and sharp he is, and just … he’s awesome.

Allison:

I’m just laughing at so many … there are just so many moments with David where I just want to be his … I know he’s a fictional character, but you just want to be his friend. He’s so funny. And most of the time it’s unintentional. He’s also very honest in a different way from the Rolands of the world. He’s also just a very honest, talk about personal brand again, his unique look is sort of goth-ish in a way, but also very fashion-forward.

Ren:

That’s funny.

Allison:

And he has a —

Ren:

A lot of black.

Allison:

A lot of black. He has a really solid eye for business too, where he started working at the Blouse Barn, and redid all the mannequins, put some mood lighting in there, brought in, I think there were leather ponchos or something. So outside of what you might see at the Blouse Barn. And I think he takes chances in the business world that really work for him in the long run. And one of the funniest episodes, however, is where he learns about write-offs in taxes. Do you remember that episode?

Ren:

You’re going to have to tell me more. Remind me.

Allison:

So he’s ordering a bunch of stuff for this store, and I think he has new sheets or something like that, and a new lamp in the motel. And Johnny said, “Where are you getting the money for this?” And he says, “It’s a write-off.” And Johnny said, “Who is writing it off?” And David’s like, “I don’t know, the government. I don’t know, it’s a write-off.” And they go back and forth. It’s just so funny, his learning curve too, and his awareness of the responsibility that he has to take now, where he didn’t before.

Ren:

Yeah, I am remembering that now, and getting all this brand new stuff, like, “No, it’s totally okay, the business is paying for it.” I think it’s funny to watch his evolution too, as he partners with Patrick, both in that business partner and romantic partner space. But something that sticks out for me for David is loyalty, and that’s a trait for leaders of some of the things that really works. One episode, I think, is when one of David’s ex-boyfriends comes into town, that super famous photographer or something.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

And he’s got beef or dirt on Moira or something, and they kind of leave it, the storyline like, “David’s choosing the photographer over his mom.” And then at the end, we realize like, “Oh, he got the SD card from the photographer.” And he’s actually always holding it down for his family, even if he benefited from the exchange, albeit slightly. And it just seems like, again, these people kind of all grounded around a recognition. And once they got out of their own way, they were able to be maybe closer to the people they wanted to be. I think David’s a really good example of that.

Allison:

Definitely. And getting closer to the people they wanted to be close to was something that’s top of mind for me, too. And we’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about the “fold in the cheese” episode.

Ren:

That is just, I loved … What a good motherly and son moment, too. “What does it mean, fold in the cheese?”

Allison:

“You fold it in.”

Ren:

“You say fold it one more time.” Yeah.

Allison:

It’s so funny. But a bigger lesson too, where they’re exploring, “Maybe we should have family meals together,” and they’re sitting around the table in the motel like, “Well, who’s going to cook?” and Moira says, “Well, I will. I’m the mother.” I’m paraphrasing. And they all sort of look at each other like, “Oh, no. She cannot cook. What are we going to do?” Her and David attempt to cook together, and it’s a slight disaster, again, in the most comical way. But it is this sort of bonding moment for them where they spend time together, where they just hadn’t spent time together as a family. So I think there’s such a build — subtle, and sometimes overt — in that show of how important relationships are at the end of the day.

Ren:

Yeah. And maybe that is some of … it’s just the relationship-first messaging, I think. And we talk it too, in I think our newest bit of work, human-centered leadership, and some of our frameworks around that remind us that we’re people first and foremost, and we work with a whole bunch of other people. And if we can just recognize that, versus pretending like we’re not, it might unlock doors for us. And I think that’s probably something that Johnny did the most, and I think he reminds me of every winner who needs to reinvent and go back to what makes them unique.

Johnny’s this hard-working video store guy. And you see that when he’s in the restaurant and Twyla’s busy, and he just starts to help. And he starts waiting tables, he starts bussing tables, he just starts running the reps. I mean, granted, he was looking for work during that part of his arc, but he’s just that, even as rich as he got, even as wealthy as he got, he was also maybe this kind of grounded, “I’m a hard-working guy. This stuff didn’t happen by accident.” And he reminds us all that real excellence doesn’t happen by accident. And I think he gets to rebuild himself in the image that he wants, which is that hard-working self.

Allison:

Yeah, and he does focus, as well, on his relationships, too. And even though, for the most part, it’s him and Stevie eventually running that motel, he really does focus on her and her well-being, and ensuring she gets days off, because she was the only person running that motel and never got days off.

And I remember one episode where he is trying to give her some sort of staff reward, if you will, and he buys her a giant case of makeup, and it’s hilarious. But you think about his intentions are to recognize the hard work of others, and he’s everything that you said, he’s also very kind and he’s very passionate about what he does. He shows up in a suit and tie, whether he’s changing the sheets, or working at the front desk, or taking pictures for the brand with Stevie outside.

Do you remember when he creates business cards? And I think instead of saying Twitter, he said, “Find us on the tweeters,” or something like that. It’s just so very sweet. He’s very engaged in what he does, and his business knowledge is so complete that it allows him to spend time on his relationships.

Ren:

And yet, too, I think what he’s a great reminder of, is that it’s easy to lose sight of those things. The reason they got into this in the first place is because their business manager did some nefarious things with their monies. And so, he’s a reminder that those muscles, if not worked out, can atrophy. And, which is the fun thing about muscle memory though, I think why he could take to it so quickly or why he was so good at it, was because once we learn to do something and we don’t do it in a while, we actually get back to it pretty quickly.

There’s something about the learned pathways, the familiar-tread walkways, where we get back into that thing and it can warm us back up, it can get us back to where we were. And so if you’re listening, and you’ve ever led or been led in a certain way, or want to go back to that place but it’s been a while, and you’re like, “Oh God, do I have to start over?” Not actually, you’re not starting from the same place you started from in the beginning.

You’ve done some work. Now granted, maybe the weeds have grown on the path and you have to rework some of it, but it’s still there. And so I think Johnny was able to kind of tap into his holistic wisdom about business, about life, about family, and leverage that again, to keep his family together. And that’s, too, just another through line for everyone, is that they’re all just so committed to one another. And he was the reason that the family was together for a while. And I think the reason that Schitt’s Creek became what it was is a lot, in part, because of Johnny Rose.

Allison:

Yes. And perhaps one of maybe the most relevant quotes from Johnny for what we do and what we talk about is this, and maybe this will help us round out the episode a bit. He says this to, I believe he’s saying this to maybe Alexis, actually. He says, “Let me explain something about business to you. It’s a dance, and sometimes you lead and sometimes you follow.” And I think that’s really relevant to what we do, where Alexis is helping with the brand side of things, and Stevie has the historical knowledge and the tradition and the knowledge of the community. And he understands that you have to bring the best people to the plate to allow for a business to run smoothly and let their talents shine, and let them lead in their area of expertise.

Ren:

Yeah. And again, the kind of leader that it takes, recognizing that your job is not to be the very best person at all of the things. Your job is to get the very best people in the room to do all of the things. And again, the through line for me, and maybe a big through line for all of these leaders in the show is, what does it look like to have the character to withstand the shoulds, the oughts, and the coulds? Like, “You’re the boss, you should be making the shots. You’re the manager, you should be doing this. You did all that work, you should be getting credit.”

It’s almost like Truman says, which is ironic, apparently with his beef with Oppenheimer, but, “It’s amazing what we can do when no one gets the credit, or when no one cares who gets the credit.” And I think there’s something about cultivating that inside of you and recognizing that. And when we talk about the social process of leadership at CCL, I think it’s rooted in the idea that the best leaders let leadership emerge in and around the process. And the best leaders aren’t always the one who demand that they be recognized or told or have the role of the leader, but the person who lets their small town and the awesome people in that small town rise, and do what they do best.

Allison:

One thing that we can take away from the show that is emergent with all of the characters is that they allow for the talents and the strengths of others to shine through, and really nourish not only the Rosebud Motel, but the community itself. And yes, there are some difficult conversations that happen along the way, but it all is with the intention of developing, again, not only the motel as a business, but the greater community.

Ren:

Yeah. And so maybe just one thing to buoy onto that, it’s like assume positive intent when you’re in a position. And then sometimes when you’re not or when it’s hard, it pays off the most to assume positive intent. And I think a lot of these people at their best were able to do that, and gave us a fun time while doing it.

Allison:

Absolutely. Well, this was a fun episode to record, Ren, and I’m sure there’s a lot more we could talk about. So to our listeners, if you haven’t seen the show, highly recommend. It is comical.

Ren, you alluded to this at the beginning, but it took me the first couple of episodes to really get into it. Give it time. If you feel that way, just give it a couple of episodes.

Ren:

Yeah. You’re going to love it.

Allison:

I promise it is so hilarious, heartwarming, and has some great leadership lessons along the way. So thanks for the conversation, Ren.

To our listeners, you can find all of our show notes and podcast episodes on ccl.org. Find us on LinkedIn, find us on Instagram too. Let us know, if you were going to be managed by somebody in Schitt’s Creek, who would you want to have as your leader?

And we will look forward to tuning in with you all next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everybody. Thanks Allison, see you next time.

Find Allison on TikTok.

Interview Transcript

INTRO: 

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That. We talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

It’s manager madness Allison, again, where we one by one discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top. Today, Beyoncé. That’s right, the Queen B herself. We’ll be spotlighting one of the most iconic figures in contemporary music in pop culture. From her early days as that powerhouse vocalist of Destiny’s Child to her unparalleled solo career, Beyoncé has consistently redefined the boundaries of artistry, entrepreneurship, and leadership.

Now, emerging onto the scene in the ’90s, Beyoncé quickly became a household name with Destiny’s Child, achieving massive success with hits like “Say my name, say my name.” Allison, you remember. Or, “I’m a survivor. I’m not going to” … Isn’t that wild? That just blows my mind. We’re probably going to get struck or bleeped because I’m such a good singer. But anyway. It’s really her solo career that catapulted her to superstardom.

With albums like Dangerously in Love, B’Day, and Lemonade, Beyonce has not only topped the charts, but she’s also cemented her status as a visionary artist, blending genres and pushing artistic boundaries, as most recently breaking records, as she seems to do all the time, with her latest single, Texas Hold ‘Em. The superstar is trying some new things, jumping into the country world headfirst. Even Dolly [Parton] noticed, saying, “I’m a big fan of Beyoncé and very excited that she’s done a country album. So, congratulations on your Billboard Hot Country number 1 single,” Parton wrote.

But past the music, Beyoncé’s leadership extends far beyond the stage. She has consistently used her platform to advocate for social justice, women’s empowerment, racial equality. And from her groundbreaking visual album Lemonade, which delved into themes of infidelity and forgiveness, Black womanhood, to her advocacy work with organizations like BeyGOOD, Beyoncé’s leadership style is characterized by authenticity, resilience, and commitment to using her influence for positive change.

So, as an artist, entrepreneur, and philanthropist, Beyoncé Knowles continues to inspire and lead by example, leaving an indelible mark on the music industry and beyond. So, welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington. As usual, joined with Allison Barr. Allison, if Beyoncé was your boss, what would you be excited about? What would you be worried about?

Allison:

I would like to first back up, because I did not know you were going to sing for us this morning, which I’m very grateful I had the opportunity to hear your solo.

Ren:

You’re welcome. 

Allison:

And I am a little bit disappointed you did not sing my favorite Beyoncé song, but that’s okay. I won’t lose too much sleep over it this evening.

Ren:

What’s the favorite song?

Allison:

Formation. Hands down. Formation. Do you know that one?

Ren:

I probably need someone to refresh my memory of what it sounds like, and that person might be you.

Allison:

Oh, I don’t think today is the day for that, but maybe some other time.

Ren:

You should have done it.

Allison:

You can give it a Google. But what I will tell you is that … what did I say? How old did I say I was in the last podcast? 26.

Ren:

I think we were in our 20s, I think, the last time.

Allison:

We were in our 20s. I was just a young teen when that song came out, and I used to practice the dance to it in my friend Stacey’s living room for hours and hours and hours. Anyhow, maybe towards the end, you can give us your personal rendition of that song, and we can go from there. But to answer your question. What would concern me and what would excite me if she was my leader? Is that the question? Those are the questions?

Ren:

Yeah. 2-parter.

Allison:

I’m digging here because what would make me nervous is that I have heard … so this is based on speculation only. I have heard that Beyoncé does not sleep much, and that she works more hours in a day than most people would comfortably, and can function very well on little sleep. I am not one of those people, so if my working hours were expected to be upwards of 12 hours consistently, I don’t think that that would be a good match for me. I don’t think I would produce my best work.

What would excite me is there are a lot of things that you’ve mentioned already around her innovation, her talent, but I think what excites me the most is a quote that I found from her, and that quote is, “I don’t like to gamble, but if there’s one thing I’m willing to bet on, it is myself.” And I really like that type of confidence in a leader. What about you?

Ren:

Yes. I don’t know. I’m wondering if I’m always going to be like, “the double-edged sword of their greatness is their greatest flaw,” but I probably would be really inspired by her doggedness, her drive, the way that she’s been able to maintain power and consistency. And that’s really interesting. That’s super inspirational. We’re going to be talking about a career that spans 30 years, really longer than that, because she’s been singing since she was a child, she was beating adults when she was 7 years old. But I think just her evolution and her consistency is really amazing.

I think one thing that I might be worried about, not knowing her at all, is I feel like she’s not only a sun, she’s a universe. And by the way, she’s married to another really prolific person who has, by the way, one of the most prolific businesses in their industry. And so, how do you not show up as a number in an organization and for a person who’s just got the world to consider?

So, I maybe get lost in the wash. I might worry that I would have to be inspired by her leadership, maybe not led directly by it.

Allison:

Did you say that you would worry about feeling like a number? Is that what you said?

Ren:

Yeah. I’m just maybe comparing that to anyone who’s listening who works in an organization that just has so many people that it’s impossible maybe to feel like, “Oh, we’re an organization of 20 people.” I don’t know if she treats people like numbers. But if I’m in an outfit, like think about a world tour, which has anywhere between 10 to 20 semi-trucks that follows her around. If you’re on that crew, there’s probably a lot of effort she’s got to put forth to make people feel welcome. And I imagine she does, but I’d be curious how much self-drive I would need to feel seen in a universe where I’m just a speck of dust.

Allison:

Is it important to you, in your work, that you have some connection to the CEO? We’ll assume that she’s the CEO. Is that important to you?

Ren:

That’s interesting. I like to think that I let people amplify me, and so I don’t need a CEO to inspire me. I find a lot of other drivers. I think you and I talked about this. I’m just excited about work. I like to do what I do. I’m trying to make a difference in this world. That inspires me. I don’t need someone else to do that for me. But if they were inspiring it, sure, it wouldn’t hurt. And so, I think working with people who seem just totally uninspired or disinterested in what we’re all here to do is boring. I don’t want to hear them speak. I just want to get to work. So I don’t know. That’s a pseudo-answer. Does it matter to you?

Allison:

That is a pseudo-answer. To have a connection to my CEO? I don’t think so. Well, I am baffled by my own question, because what do I mean by connection? We hear from our CEO, and I appreciate that. And I appreciate his candor and, to the extent that he can be straightforward, I appreciate that, but I don’t have a personal connection to him and that’s okay. I think what makes me feel like I’m not a number, I suppose, is the way the messaging is communicated. I suppose that’s important to me, more so than a personal connection.

Ren:

Probably what’s coming up for me is maybe the environment. I don’t need to be shaking or high-fiving my CEO’s hand. It’s not necessary. I do wonder, is there an environment that they create where the message reaches me and I believe it? But also, do I not see a message or hear something and go like, “Whatever, dude,” or “Whatever, dudette. You’re Beyoncé. What do you know about my trials or tribulations? I clean the bathrooms at the stadium.” I don’t think those people work for her team. That’s hyperbole.

But I think that’s probably the thing. How many things go unnoticed that perpetuate bad behaviors or negative impacts, like so many other organizations? Maybe that’s a good articulation of what I’d be worried about. I wouldn’t be worried about her. I’d be worried about … she’s so big, that the ecosystem around her is so massive, that maybe her truth and light doesn’t get into some of those dark corners of real business.

Allison:

That’s so interesting. I didn’t expect for us to take this route, but I’m going to keep going because it’s very interesting.

Ren:

Let’s do it. I like it. Yeah.

Allison:

What is the difference between a CEO of … we won’t use CCL because that’s too close to home. We’ll use a different organization. I don’t know, an organization of 1,000 people. And the CEO is a similar bright light, inspiring, et cetera. What makes their message hit into the dark corners, so to speak? What’s the difference? Do you know what I mean? How can a leader then reach those corners, regardless of size of organization?

Ren:

Regardless of size? Yeah. Something that’s big and important to me, I think, it’s always having … who’s telling your message the way you want your message told in rooms you’re not in? And so, I’ll often tell leaders … and you could even think about Beyoncé, Allison, and anyone who’s listening. She’s done a good job of creating a brand for herself. She has created a narrative and then put that narrative in the hands of people that she’ll never meet, who are singing her tune, pun intended.

And so, I guess that’s what I often tell young leaders is … you’re not going to be in every room. Not every person’s always going to hear what you care about, but what are you doing to make sure that your message is clear and that you’re giving it to the right people so they can carry it? I think for her, she’s got to hand it to people who are leading her armies to make sure they are shining the light in their parts of the organization.

I think it’s easier in a 1,000-part organization. Think of a bright star like Beyoncé, her light might shine bright enough to engulf 1,000 people. But an organization like one of the super houses that we know where there’s 800,000 employees, I don’t know how bright a light you can have that’s actually going to reach down there, especially if people below you are casting their own darkness and shadow because they aren’t bought into the message.

Allison:

Right. And that’s an interesting statement too, because if we think about those super organizations that are as big as you just mentioned, by technical standards, they’re very successful. I’m noodling on this a lot because how important … from a business, if we’re talking about business and not necessarily Beyoncé’s business, but to our leaders that we interact with … how important is that? I don’t know, to the success of a company. It’s important. You and I, I think, are aligned that it is important, but how important is it for the success of an organization overall? I don’t know the answer to that.

She’s incredibly business-savvy. She’s incredibly innovative. You already said this. She’s empowering. She’s decisive. She fired her manager of 15 years, I think that was in 2011, and then took full financial responsibility of her own business, businesses rather. And she’s been full steam ever since and probably before that too. So, she is incredibly decisive. And I wonder if someone like Beyoncé has such a clear standard for her businesses that there’s no questioning what behaviors are welcome and what are not.

Ren:

I always wonder, too, do you think that Beyoncé’s got leadership competencies that, if you get paid by Beyoncé, that you have to abide? Now, she does have an organization called BeyGOOD, and I want to talk about it a little bit. And that’s a charitable organization that just does immense things attached to her name, her image, her brand, her tours, from food to clothes donations to just helping young people experience music and art. I mean, talk about a way to funnel your energies. But I wonder, if you’re going on tour, do you like, “Look, okay, cool. We are courageous. And by that, we mean these 5 behaviors.”

That’s a curiosity. I do wonder, but go back to your success. It’s funny, I was writing this down because one of the first things I look for when we talk about these characters is their net worth, especially someone this big, according to Forbes in 2022, $450 million net worth, Beyoncé herself. And I think net worths are this weird, amorphous idea, but it conceptualizes maybe this idea that she’s a powerhouse, ranked 61st among America’s wealthiest self-made women by the same Forbes article.

But when I think about what is success, I probably go more towards her impact on society and her impact with BeyGOOD, less around her financial standard or capabilities. Because that brings into a larger conversation, that I don’t know if you and I will ever get that episode to air, around what societal structures we need to be engaging in to make the world a better place. Anywho, I don’t know.

I think probably like, to success, let’s go with BeyGOOD. And I wonder, can Beyoncé articulate the behaviors that she wants to be around that amplify her leadership, that enable other people to lead like her? That’d be cool. I’d like to ask that.

Allison:

Yeah, it’s so tough, too, because when we talk about Beyoncé, we’re talking about an entertainer and businesswoman and innovator and … There’s so much to say about her that is innately inspiring, and I think that people would naturally follow her regardless. Honestly, I think people look up to her, like a lot of other entertainers and business people. But I think to your point, she’s also done a lot of good for society and people who are underprivileged. So I think there are some natural qualities that she has, that people would naturally try to emulate, that we may or may not see in the general workplace. Some of us might, but I don’t know that it’s as common.

She’s a human. I’m sure she has her pitfalls as well. But what stands out to me about her, and what I’ve read about her, is her savviness and her innovation. Like you said, she’s been in the business for 20-plus years, in the entertainment business that is, and her style never gets old. And that’s because she frequently reinvents herself. I don’t know if anyone’s coaching her on that. I have no idea. I would imagine she has a powerhouse team as well. But from what I understand, she drives most of those decisions.

If we’re linking that to the general work worlds, it is important to have some foundation on your, dare I say “product” or your brand, but also be able to reinvent frequently, which is a hard balance for organizations.

Ren:

Yeah, I remember when she left Destiny’s Child, it was like … people rarely succeed when they’d go on solo careers after leaving their bands. And I think you see that in music, but music’s also so finicky. I think there’s something there. Something too, though, that you said earlier around this idea of emulation. I wondered and I guess … you said, talking to you about a team that she has around, or how she maybe manicures her reputation … I guess when you have to manicure your public image and you are Beyoncé, so your public image is you’re a world figure, you’re known, then there’s a lot of behaviors to emulate.

But let’s take any CEO that you can think of. Are they as visible for behaviors to emulate? If someone is a bright light, but they’re not giving examples for it, then are they going to create that natural followship that Beyoncé will? And then, too, I mean, we talk about the complexities of humans. We know that Beyoncé is a human and that she’s not perfect. It’s like that old adage, never meet your heroes, because you find out that oh crap, they’re a miserable human being just like me.

Inevitably, all that glitters won’t be gold, and Beyoncé will have a bad day as a mother and as a business woman and as an entertainer, and she might let that spill out onto the people around her. And then, that might even be harder to take because she’s been deified. A couple of ideas there, but maybe what do you say to a CEO who’s not got as much visibility there, or how would you react to that?

Because I think people can emulate her, but only because she’s on the highest stage in the world. How do other leaders create an environment for emulation?

Allison:

That’s a tricky question because Beyoncé originally, by trade, is an entertainer and CEOs are not. I wouldn’t expect my CEO to entertain me though. It would be amazing and hilarious if they did. But that’s not my expectation, and the clarity that I have on what I’m expected to do at the workplace, I’m clear on that. I think you and I have unique careers and unique jobs because the inspiration … I won’t speak for you, but I’m curious what your thoughts are.

The inspiration that I gain at work mostly, not holistically, but mostly comes from being in the classroom with clients. It is so engaging and inspiring to me and life-giving. I don’t seek that inspiration from my CEO necessarily. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah, I think we mentioned this earlier around having personal pride or a personal mission. And I think that’s why you and I have often said, and I’ll say it again, everyone … My wife and I just did a values exercise, Heather. I want to stop calling her my wife …

Another departure. I was with a colleague of mine, and he continued to refer to his wife by her first name. And I kept on saying to myself, “Who is this person he’s speaking about?” He was talking to other people, and I thought, “What an interesting intention.” I haven’t asked him about it, but Harrison, shout out, you’re a great guy. He’s a really thoughtful, grounded person. And I was thinking to myself, “It’s interesting how we identify these people by titles.” And then, I was also thinking to myself though, “Well, maybe it’s because I’m a private person and you don’t need to know what my wife’s name is.” But you do know my wife’s name, and all of you are engaging in parasocial relationship with me anyway. So, my wife’s name is Heather. We’re public figures. Sure, whatever. Thanks for that departure.

Heather and I were doing values exercises, and a new value rose of the surface for me, which was self-respect. And one of the first ideas around self-respect was self-acceptance, being proud of yourself. And I think naturally, in order for self-acceptance to come, I think you’ve got to have self-awareness, like what makes you proud of yourself?

I’m not perfect. I have loads of work to do, but I would say that, yeah, you and I probably have worked to synthesize what we find pride and joy in, and then we don’t need anyone else shining that light for us. And I think I agree with you. But when I wonder about someone who’s less clear, or who might need some guidance, I wondered … you said CEOs aren’t an entertainer.

Well, what is a CEO? Because I think sometimes the CEO can inspire apathy or excitement, and I’d rather them inspire something than nothing. And so, if I have a CEO message where I’m like, ugh, then that might just be enough to make me look for someone else.

Allison:

Again, it’s a tricky question, because it depends on who you ask and, perhaps, what you value, maybe? CEOs, by trade, oversee organizations. Based on my position where I am right now, I don’t directly report to the CEO. I’m not even in the same geographic location. I’ve had some interaction. I’ve been lucky to meet CEOs in my past careers prior to CCL, of course. And again, I don’t want to overuse the word inspiration, my drive, my excitement around coming to work had a lot more to do with my colleagues and the work that I was actually doing versus my CEO.

I’ll share with you that one of my best friends and I were having a similar conversation. I won’t say where she works, but it is a larger organization and well-known. And the CEO is less than inspiring, and that’s important to her. We had a conversation about it. One of the questions I asked her is, what is the CEO’s responsibility to you feeling engaged at work? Is it your manager? Whose responsibility is that? Whose responsibility is it that you feel engaged at work? That’s rhetorical, unless you have an answer to that, Ren.

Ren:

All of us. I am of the extreme ownership, like personal accountability standpoint, so me, I have no one else to blame about anything in my life other than me. I create the realities I’m a part of. But in reality, I also cannot ask an individual to say … like, people have the right to ask for things, just as I have the right to not ask for them. We talk to leaders all the time where we’re like, “Can you teach a sense of urgency?” And I work with a whole bunch of really smart, driven people who will look at me and just shrug their shoulders and say they don’t get it. They think it’s an overabundance of nature versus nurture.

And I guess what I’m trying to explore right now is, what are those nurturing aspects? A question that we’ll ask for all of our leaders, and I’ll ask you this now, would you want Beyoncé to be your leader, or would you want Beyoncé as your leader?

Allison:

Would I? Yeah, in a heartbeat. What I’m pulling into that too though, is the assumption that I would also be working … well, how many businesses does she own now?

Ren:

You can almost pick which one you’d want to work for.

Allison:

Yeah. Who knows? If it was in the entertainment industry, maybe not, because that industry is rough. And again, I value my discretional time. I value my relationships, my personal relationships, now more than ever. If it was the entertainment industry, maybe not, but if it was one of the others, sure.

Ren:

Because you think that it would provide for you the things that you value, discretionary time, time with colleagues?

Allison:

I think so. I’m just riffing here because I don’t know. We’ve got to talk about what position I have and all of that. If it were something in leadership development, organizational development, people development, then yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ren:

Well, let’s chase a rabbit that we were talking about earlier, and we were talking about the CEO. Do they need to keep you inspired? Let’s say you had to work for her, Beyoncé, in the entertainment industry, like something you’re unfamiliar with, where you aren’t naturally driven by, like where you right now said, “Okay, you’re making a switch.” Tomorrow, you’ve got to go close business, and you may not have the time to switch your heuristic of “I’ve got pride in myself in the work that I do here.” What would keep you in that job? And would she have a part in it?

Allison:

What would keep me in the music industry?

Ren:

Yeah. The part of the thing that you were reticent to join. You’d have to work for Beyoncé, but it wouldn’t for BeyGOOD, her charitable organization as her L&D director. It would be in her entertainment and touring industry as, I don’t know, something not glamorous.

Allison:

Something not glamorous. I don’t know. I feel like this is a hard question because I need more details.

Ren:

But why do you need more details?

Allison:

I can tell you … I mean, because —

Ren:

Because you’re trying to create an environment that you would be satisfied with, that doesn’t involve your CEO creating an environment that you’ll be satisfied with?

Allison:

Well, I think because what I value, my values as such as they pertain to the workplace, vary slightly. So, the work that I do now, the actual work that I’m responsible for, I mean the things that I produce, I very much enjoy it. I am very much interested in it. I believe in it. I like sharing it with others. I think it’s valuable and important. Have I worked a job, though, where I didn’t feel that and been happy? Yes, because I had my other values met.

And the thing is, music is a very big part of my life. I love music. There’s a guitar sitting to my right and a piano sitting to my left. Am I Beyoncé? No. Would I have some pride working in the music entertainment industry? Yes. And from what I hear and understand, it’s a no-sleep type of industry. And that does not appeal to me.

Ren:

Is there anything that Beyoncé could do with her leadership behaviors or style that could make that more appealing to you?

Allison:

Yeah, if I had just regular normal working hours, yeah, I’d be okay with that.

Ren:

The thing that Beyoncé could do for you from a behavioral standpoint would be shift your schedule. That’s what you’re saying, which is fine. I like it. But that’s what you’re saying.

Allison:

We’re talking about something that’s out there in the ether. I don’t even know what my job is at this point. So again, I would —

Ren:

Yeah, it’s a hypothetical.

Allison:

I’d probably need some more information. But if you’re trying to get me to investigate — what are you trying to get me — what’s the bottom line here?

Ren:

Well, we’re asking would you want to work for Beyoncé. And the answer is yes. And if it’s yes, well, why would it be? I’d say yes too, but probably because she’s so wealthy that if I’m on tour, I’m probably getting a nice bonus. But is that why I want to work for a person, or do I want to work for a person because they have clarity of vision, or they’re able to communicate that sense to me, or they get my discretionary effort function? If you’d say yes to her, would you say yes to her in a job that you hated? And if so, why? What about her characteristics would keep you there?

I think, too, it’s attached to the thing we were talking about. Do you need a CEO to inspire you to work there? Well, no, but you and I have the luxury of choice. What if you don’t have the choice? What if your only option is working in an environment and in a workspace where you’re uninspired and maybe not even treated that well, what behaviors could we take from Beyoncé to change that environment?

Or if you were in a crappy situation as a tour manager, as one of the tour managers in Beyoncé’s entertainment circle, what characteristics do you think would inspire you to do that job that maybe you’re a little unfamiliar with in an industry that you’re not super excited about? What characteristics would you say, “Yeah, I want Beyoncé  to be my leader?” I mean, I know we don’t know her.

Allison:

Can we flip this? Because I am curious what you would say.

Ren:

Would I want Beyoncé to be my leader personally? From what I know about Beyoncé, would I be satisfied to work for her? I think I would, despite the fear or apprehension of maybe getting lost in the system, because the truth of the matter is you’re all numbers anyway. No, I think that the world does not care. So, instead, I attach myself to the things that she cares about. I think a lot of our work out there, and if you’re listening and you hate your job, make part of your job finding your next job.

And so, I probably want to work for Beyoncé and move my way into the BeyGOOD foundation, do something in that organization. So sure, I’d probably want to work for her for the potential that her universe has created, even if she never knows who I am. Flip success!

Allison:

And I’m going to share my unpopular … maybe, I think it’s unpopular opinion, it might not be. And then, I want to hear more about your draw towards her BeyGOOD foundation.

Ren:

For sure.

Allison:

Sometimes I think that we expect too much from workplaces. I am not saying that we should accept hostile treatment, so please do not make me a soundbite. That’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is that I was hired to do a job, and I go to work, and I do that job, and I do my best, and I make mistakes sometimes, and those things happen. And … to your point, right now, I do have the luxury of choice and not everybody does. And that might be a separate conversation. But my point is there are so many articles out there, and so many things that we talk about, with regard to the workplace almost being everything to people. That’s impossible. It’s impossible.

You cannot please everybody, because people are different. People value different things. I don’t know if that’s a polarity. It feels like there’s a polarity in there somewhere. But workplaces cannot be the be-all for everybody. It is absolutely impossible. Curious what your reaction is to that.

Ren:

Well, it reminds me of a conversation we’ve had before, where we were talking about work from home and building community. I think what I’m hearing from you is that our frame of reference around the workplace might need to shift. And we might be looking for too many things, especially as it relates to self-respect, or self-acceptance, or self-satisfaction. If we’re waiting for our boss or our workspace to satisfy us, then you’re going to be waiting. You need to be cultivating that garden on your own. So I think I hear what you’re saying from that standpoint.

I think it’s probably a bigger picture, though, when we [think] about what matters for success. I think, for what matters for success now, if we’re tracking financial outcomes, then sure, these things are probably irrelevant. We’re probably looking for the wrong things in the wrong places. But if we were to shift the conversation of what success looks like … where we weren’t talking about money earned, but maybe money spent on feeding people, that’d be an interesting cultural conversation as a world.

And so, I think maybe you’re right, we are seeking too much from the world today, but I want more than just being hired to do a job and then do that job around people who I can tolerate. Not saying that’s what you’re saying, but I think maybe —

Allison:

Yeah, that is not what I’m saying.

Ren:

No, that’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying. I think that I want more. I want something different. And maybe that’s why I’m drawn to her BeyGOOD, because she’s a prolific businesswoman who’s got a lot of business functions, of business units rather, different arms of that $450 million empire. But the part that I am most inspired by is the part of her that’s using her name and her light to give back to others. So, I don’t know where we wind it, or how we got to this one necessarily. I guess maybe answering would I want her to be my boss, yeah. And it wouldn’t be bad to get a bonus, because I bet she bonuses her people fat.

Allison:

Maybe, right?

Ren:

I bet on the tour they get a good bonus.

Allison:

It sounds to me like you’re drawn to the mission of her foundation and the work that they contribute to society. And let’s be real. If I worked for Beyoncé, and on the entertainment side, it’s unlikely, though it pains me to say this, it’s unlikely that I would be hanging out with Beyoncé on a daily basis, which to me would be very intriguing. It’s more likely that I would be, I don’t know, managing some of her people or something. If we try to translate my role to her world, which I don’t know that we can, but I’m going to try, it’s unlikely that I would have any sort of connection to her directly.

But I still would find it to be really unique and interesting to be part of what she is contributing. It may be another podcast. But music is very important to me, and I do think it’s important to the world. When things are hard for people, they generally turn to art in some form, and music is one of those things. So. All that to say, yes, I would work for Beyoncé in a heartbeat.

Ren:

To be around the positivity that she brings. And I think that’s something, too, that we can agree on. And I just saw something that I wanted to ask, just to poke the bear a little bit, which is to say, I’m keen to hear your perspective on her, like early in her career, she dealt with a lot of things like Ban Bossy versus Embrace Bossy. Or is she like many young women in a patriarchal society, where if sex sells, they abide by the business that mandates how they make progress. And then, people are like, “You’re not a good role model.”

We’re rounding up towards maybe the end of the show. I don’t know if there’s a quick answer to how do we reconcile our puritanical prudishness with people’s ability to be role models, but maybe that’s a different episode. I don’t know. Do you have a quick answer to that?

Allison:

Well, can you ask me —

Ren:

Because I don’t have any problem with her dress. Yeah, it was like —

Allison:

Well, let me pause you right there. Whether or not you have a problem with her dress is irrelevant. And I appreciate —

Ren:

Well, I don’t think so.

Allison:

Here’s why. Well, there’s a lot of reasons why. You asked if I have an easy answer and I do not. Maybe we could … I don’t know. Let me just say what immediately comes to mind is that she’s … well, I’m making some assumptions here, so allow me. She’s being herself. If she’s wearing a crop top and a short skirt, okay. If you can’t help but stare at her, not you, I mean the general you, that is a you problem and you are objectifying her. I appreciate that she is who she is. I think it’s a much bigger conversation. And her being a role model, I mean, you brought up patriarchy and … you didn’t say feminism, but I’m bringing that up.

The “new wave of feminism” is that women do what they do for them, and are not necessarily making choices based on what you think. So, if she wants to not shave her legs for the rest of her life, okay. Do you know how people would lose their minds if that happened? When we’re talking about her being a role model, look at what she’s accomplished as a business person versus what she looks like. What she looks like is irrelevant.

Ren:

Well, and that’s exact … I couldn’t agree with you more. Absolutely. I think it’s just a nuisance when people will juxtapose her physical appearance to her capabilities or anything like that. And when I think about people being who they are, I start to think about, well, what subconscious things are we modeling around who we are supposed to be anyway, but another massive conversation. So, yeah, I think you —

Allison:

You’re hitting deep questions here.

Ren:

They’re all deep. We’re all doing the work. This is going to be a spicy, fun year, everybody. And I think maybe that’s, too, if we start to finish, I think something about Beyoncé that I might … one thing that she does that I would do, a couple of things maybe. I think it’s clear that she’s been able to explore herself and do some work. I think you’re not this successful for this long if you’re also not doing that growth to withstand all of the crap. So I think whatever she’s doing, I’d love to hear how she continues to make peace with herself and the world around her.

And maybe, too, I’m reminded of her alter ego, Sasha Fierce, when she was younger. It’s so amazing, all of us, every profession, like all these really super proficient people at one point or another have dealt with imposter syndrome. You’re not alone out there if you’re feeling like you don’t belong. Because Beyoncé didn’t think she belonged. She had to create an alter ego to get out there. I was like, “I love that. Do whatever you got to do to put yourself out there.” Because your brain does not know the difference.

So, whether you’re Sasha Fierce or Beyoncé Knowles, when you’re doing the thing that you’re scared to do, you start to build the ability to withstand your fear and get better at it. So, I think, yeah, we agree. I like Beyoncé. I think she’s a role model. I’d be glad to have her as a role model and a role model for my people.

Allison:

Well, I think the next episode, I won’t make you answer it now, but next episode, you’re going to have to share with us what your alter ego is. What is Ren’s Sasha Fierce?

Ren:

I’ll have to really think of that.

Allison:

And I agree with everything that you said, and will add that, from a business perspective, I think what our leaders can think about is how she really continues to improve over time, while still she really does meet the needs of her audience, so to speak. And if you think about business, very simplified, very, very simplified, a business standard is to move an idea into a product or to create a product for your audience, for your consumer. And competitors might create or try to create a similar product to her in response to her success. However, there’s no other artist in her genre that even comes close to mimicking her style with success.

She remains very true to her core offering, if you will. So, I think she does a really good job of leveraging tradition and innovation, leveraging who she is and what her core offerings are, and also leveraging innovation to your very earlier point, creating some country tracks. She’s still Beyoncé and has found a way to innovate and still remain who she is. And that is a business challenge that I think a lot of businesses face. So, that would be one of my key takeaways for her.

Ren:

Yeah, I love that. Be like the both / and versus the either / or. She’s like the both / and. And that’s really cool.

Allison:

Yeah. Ren, before we close for the day, are you sure you don’t want to give us one more solo? Perhaps your new song.

Ren:

(singing) “If you like it then you better put a ring on it …” And every time I hear someone say left, I always like, “To the left, to the left.” I’m not in the Beyhive. I can’t even front.

Allison:

I think you might be. I think you might be.

Ren:

You’re welcome, everybody. You owe me.

Allison:

Yes. Well, thank you, Ren, for the solo, and for your artistry ,and for the great conversation today. We’ll look to hear about your alter ego in our next episode. And to our listeners, let us know what you think. Are you part of the Beyhive? What do you like about Beyoncé? Would you want to work for her? And we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. As always, you can find our show notes and all of the links to our podcast on ccl.org. Big thank you to Ryan and Crystal and the entire CCL team that makes our podcast happen, and we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, everyone.

Ren:

Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Allison. See you next time. Find Allison on TikTok.

Interview Transcript

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Now, let me give you a few stats to start us off here, folks. The Star Spangled Banner at 11; signed with Sony records at 14; first Platinum album at 16; the youngest artist in history to have written and performed a number one song on the Hot Country Songs chart. Youngest person to ever win Entertainer of the Year at the Country Music Association Awards. Youngest person to win Album of the Year; first woman to win Album of the Year 3 times. Anyone know who I’m talking about? No? Maybe? How about this? The highest earning female musician of the past decade. Most number one hits on Billboard’s U.S. digital song sales chart. She broke the record for the most-streamed album in a single day in Spotify history, then she broke it again, and then one of every 25 vinyl album sold in the U.S. in 2022 was by, that’s right, Taylor Swift.

Yes, Swifties. We’re talking about your girl today. Now, Taylor Swift has been a dominant force in the music industry for over a decade, with numerous awards and accolades to her name. She’s not only achieved incredible success as an artist, but has also taken a strong leadership role in the industry advocating for artists’ rights and paving the way for young female musicians and using her voice in society more than ever. Throughout her career, Taylor has demonstrated a unique set of leadership qualities that have helped her rise to the top of her field, from her ability to connect with her fans to her willingness to be creative and take creative risks and reinvent herself, Taylor has shown us what it takes to be a successful leader in a constantly evolving industry. So today we talk Taylor Swift and examine the leadership qualities of one of the most successful and iconic artists of today. Welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, be honest. Are you a Swiftie?

Allison:

So, I support Taylor Swift, yes, but I don’t know that I am a Swiftie. Her fan base is truly something remarkable, and I don’t know if, by their standards, I would fit in as a Swiftie. However, I support her. I think she’s an incredible businesswoman, and I wouldn’t say that I knew too much about her prior to 2020. However, based on some stories and some things that we’ll probably talk about, I’ve gotten to know at least her as a business person a little bit better more recently. What about you?

Ren:

No, I’m not a Swiftie, and I can assure you, as my daughter’s friend can assure you, any of your waffling over your fandom would indicate you’re not a Swiftie. They have the Spotify wrap-ups, and my daughter was telling me about some of her friends in the upper percentile of American Taylor Swift fans for hours of Taylor Swift listened to. So, no, I know I’m not a Swiftie, and I had been maybe apathetic at best about Taylor Swift for a really long time, but recently, whether it be with Ticketmaster or her fledgling political voice that she’s starting to use, or really frankly, my wife watched the documentary on her, I think it’s on Netflix, and she told me a little bit about it, and I was like, oh, that’s interesting. And then her, I don’t know, her no-name boyfriend. I’m sorry, maybe he’s famous. I think he’s an English actor. They broke up. But I thought, what an interesting chance to talk about Taylor Swift, who by all accounts is this prolific person, and maybe we should be looking at her and her success and how she’s leading herself and others in this world.

Allison:

Yeah, I also watched that documentary. That’s how I came to know a little bit more about her and what she’s up to, though I will say, I think it was in 2017 or 2018, I followed her assault trial and was very impressed with her communication and her composure. A lot of that was public. And after that, Roger and I watched her documentary. It was sometime in 2020. And again, I learned so much more about her as an artist, as an advocate, as a businesswoman, that she’s much more than somebody who sings pop songs.

Ren:

Yeah. And I know we’re going to bounce around a little bit, and that’s something that I wanted to talk about when we really start to explore her characteristics, that situation that she had. Are you talking about with David Mueller and that radio host?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yeah. Her presence and grace is really something to explore and start to investigate, especially for a young person. But maybe that’s what I think about is so impressive about her as a young person. When I think about who she is or what she’s accomplished, Taylor Swift’s 33 now. I was going to try to find out how many awards she’s won. I guess conservatively, it’s something between like 300 and 500 awards. Basically, if she’s got an award out, if that award exists, she’s won it. She’s won the Grammys 12 times, 34 American Music Awards, and as a fellow person in their thirties, Taylor, why you got to do me so bad?

Allison:

Well, what I was going to say that I’m questioning now is I think it’s interesting that she’s not talked about more, but perhaps I just don’t follow enough about her. Maybe she is talked about more in the industry. I’m not sure. You already mentioned in 2022 she was the highest paid woman entertainer. That’s a global statistic too, which is bonkers. She writes all of her music, which a lot of artists don’t get that luxury. What I appreciate about her too is that she, generally speaking, she makes public statements herself versus using a PR firm. And she’s really not afraid to stand in what she values, and she’s not afraid to challenge bigger firms like Spotify and Apple.

A story that stood out to me from I believe it was maybe 2019 or 2020, she made a statement about Apple saying, and I’m going to quote her here, “I’m sure you’re all aware that Apple Music will be offering a 3-month trial to anyone who signs up for the service. I’m not sure that you know that Apple Music will not be paying writers, producers, or artists for those 3 months, and I find it to be shocking, disappointing, and completely unlike this historically progressive and generous company.” And within hours, just within a few hours of her making that statement, Apple completely changed its direction, so her influence is something to be noted as well.

Ren:

And I think we’ll talk a little bit more around her level of investment in that kind of artist appreciation, but something that you highlighted there, and I think this is why this matters for anyone listening, is that Taylor Swift has reach and influence. Something that we’ll talk about today is her decision to use her voice for political means. And we’ll just explore, I think, some of the impact about that. But when we look at Swifties, I was reading this Forbes report, this study that they were citing that some 53% of U.S. adults said they were fans of Taylor Swift. Now, only 16% of them identified as avid, and I guess, within that, only about half consider them true Swifties. So again, we can confirm for each other. We are not they.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

But when I think about why it matters, let’s just take it beyond her fandom, but keep it in her fandom. In November ’22, you likely remember, folks, that Ticketmaster crashed or started to do some shady business practices for Taylor Swift’s concert. And then that, or her tour rather, her Eras tour for ’23, and all of that visibility and all the uproar caused Congress to look at Live Nation and Ticketmaster and the potential monopoly that is in there because of the fandom of Taylor Swift. So it’s really interesting to think about, well, why talk Taylor Swift? Well, we talk Taylor Swift because of use, or rather reach, her potential impact on others, but then maybe just looking at this artistry and navigating how this young person has been able to be as prolific and successful as she’s been.

Allison:

Yeah. One of the standout qualities, I think, that’s interesting, you sort of alluded to already. She came about, and her fans as well came about, in the age of social media, and she uses social media in a way that a lot of artists do not. She’s known for prioritizing her fans and communicating them pretty authentically, which is an interesting leadership and business parallel to make if you think about it. But we know in our work that some of the most successful and high-performing organizations are that way because their consumers take on the company brand identity. And if you think about Taylor Swift as … I don’t want to call her a product because that feels sort of icky, but she is a brand, and if you look at their fan base, would you say that they’ve taken on the brand identity of Taylor Swift?

Ren:

Yeah, as you were saying that I thought, dang, how right are you? I remember there was a time in my life I would only wear Nike football cleats, and I feel like there’s a time in people’s lives now where they will only ride or die for Taylor Swift.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. You said something about, she was able to live authentically. And I think that’s something we talk about. What’s an example of her being able to be authentic for her fans or for her brand?

Allison:

Well, I can give you 2 answers to that. I read an article, and then I can speak, not personally, but semi-personally.

Ren:

But you don’t know Taylor?

Allison:

Not yet.

Ren:

Okay.

Allison:

Maybe she’ll listen. I don’t know. I’ll tag her when we’re done.

Ren:

Oh, I wonder if she comes up on our Google searches. Taylor, we love you.

Allison:

Yeah. But I was mentioning that her fan base grew up in the age of social media and she’s been known to reply, make comments to her followers, repost their photos. If fans take pictures at her concerts, she’ll repost them. So she’s running her own social media account, which is absolutely —

Ren:

Wild.

Allison:

Right? It is unheard of. And from a more, again, not personal, but personal by association I suppose, I love TikTok. And on TikTok, someone I follow who’s not a famous person, just a you and me who’s a Swiftie, tagged Taylor Swift in a concert video. And Taylor Swift responded with a heart emoji to this person’s account, who maybe has 200 followers. She’s not famous, she’s a fan of Taylor Swift. And Taylor Swift commented on this woman’s post, which I would imagine creates a feeling of connection and maybe even a community, and you alluded to this already too, but definitely a feeling of belonging, which is another interesting parallel to leadership. So I think, again, that she runs her own social media account in ways to connect to her fan base versus promoting herself … is very different than a lot of businesses run their social media.

Ren:

Well, what resonates for me maybe is this idea that it’s authenticity through practice, just the willingness to do that. The thing that comes up for me, and this is important for a lot of clients that I work with too, is this idea, this company ethos that no one’s bigger than the job or no one’s bigger than the work. And maybe Taylor’s like, I’m not bigger than the people who got me. I’m going to show up for you as I would for anyone. And I always marvel at people who have the emotional and, I don’t know, the social bandwidth to do that. My God, I barely want to do that for 5 people, let alone 300 million people.

Allison:

Yeah. She prioritizes her fans, and I did a quick Google search of “What can we learn from Taylor Swift in business,” and across the board, articles like Forbes even, there’s an article by Tony Robbins, one of the common themes was that she prioritizes her fan base. And when businesses do that to their consumers, they also have have buy-in, right? Taylor Swift seems to know there’s no Taylor Swift without her audience. At least as big as she is, those awards don’t exist without her fan base, and she knows that. I think it was in 2019 as well, she did, I think she called it Swiftmas instead of Christmas, which is very cheeky, and sent a bunch of fans gifts for Christmas, which I don’t know. Do any of your favorite artists do anything like that, Ren?

Ren:

No.

Allison:

Do you ever get a Christmas present from whoever you listen to?

Ren:

No. No, I do not. And I shudder to think at what kind of presents they would send. If we were to bring this down to the ground level and if someone’s some leader and they’re leading a smaller team or they’re managing a restaurant, what does it look like to put their audience first? Does that mean the customer walks in the door? Or if I’m a manager, is my audience my staff? Or how do we put that for a ground level to someone who maybe doesn’t have an audience of thousands of people per se?

Allison:

Yeah, I think if we can find ways to translate what she does to the workplace, the one thing that comes up for me immediately that CCL’s research has found is that employees at the workplace want to feel a sense of connection at work, and that when they do have that connection, there’s an environment of respect and trust that’s fostered. And then your consumer or your client or your customer can also feel that too. And of course, with that comes so many benefits to the organization and the individual. Some of the research has found that stress decreases; innovation, team effectiveness increases; employees even report being sick less frequently, sick days in general are lower, and so on. But I think creating the environment at the organization, I predict, would then translate to your consumer as well.

Ren:

Yeah, absolutely. I resonate with that. I think that makes sense. I find that when we think about what authenticity looks like for you, I feel like Taylor’s been on a life journey to answer that question for herself. And so you don’t have to be available like she is to her fans or the people that like you at work, whoever’s listening. You don’t have to do a one-to-one, but I think starting to explore for yourself what showing up looks like for you, how you want to show up. What we talk, too, at CCL is this difference between reputation and brand. Reputation is what you’re known for. Brand is what you want to be known for. The idea is to close that gap, because you could want to have the best brand, but if people know you as something else, then good luck. So first thing I think that she continues to do is to qualify what she stands for.

Allison:

Yeah. And you said she’s been on a journey to discovering that herself. How do you know that?

Ren:

Well, just from watching her from the outside, and then as we make her a target of exploration, starting to review her life a little bit. I mean, one of the things that I think really stood out for me, and stands out for me still, is something that I would call composure under pressure. I mean, in 2009, remember Kanye jumped on the stage to yell at the audience and the world for letting Taylor Swift get a video music award on MTV for the best video of the year or something like that?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Kanye jumps on the stage and yells that this is a mistake; Beyonce should have won. And as you likely know, in the documentary, it’s revealed that she was a big fan of Kanye’s. And she was just a kid. I mean, she was born in ’89, she was almost 20, but I guess she was technically 19. And I know that was really hard for her, because I guess, too, that she had to retreat into herself, and to safe spaces after that, just to make sense of it all. But for her to not be poisonous or toxic after that is just really interesting. And so I’d say that the beginning of her journey is just a young person who barely knows what their world looks like, is wildly famous already, winning awards, and then someone you really care about as an idol and as a colleague blasts you in public, just the sense-making, I think. She’s been able to turn that happening and I think into some of the pillars she stands for today.

Allison:

Yeah. And on that note, and so many others, I asked you, that was a bit of a leading question because people do know that she’s been on a bit of a journey, and that’s because she’s relatively transparent about —

Ren:

I get what you were doing there.

Allison:

… what she’s experiencing. And of course there was a documentary made, right, about her. And as far as I understand it, she had a lot of say in what went into that, and wanted her fans and her viewers to really see the truth inside of what’s happening in her life, and she’s willing to share those parts of her. And when I think about authenticity, what does it mean to be authentic as a leader? Part of it is transparency. It doesn’t mean that you have to tell the world everything that’s going on with you. But her struggles as an artist and balancing her desire to advocate for others is something that I find to be truly fascinating that she’s willing to share with her people, and then they get to know her. Again, it’s that sense of belonging. Again, her fans don’t know her, but you do feel like you’re part of something bigger when you see into who somebody is as a leader or a person.

Ren:

Well, what a great segue because when I think about Taylor and advocacy, it’s something else that I think we have to explore. And another reason why we’re looking at her today is she’s got millions of millions of people who follow her. I mean, I think I just looked today at the stats, something like 347 and some change million people follow her between Instagram and Twitter.

Allison:

Oh, wow.

Ren:

So she’s got some reach. But it’s interesting, when we look at celebrity or athletes, there’s a tension that they always got to navigate where some of the world wants to hear their point of view. Some of the world wants them to keep their mouth shut. And for a lot of Taylor’s career, she was in the “keep your mouth shut” category. Because frankly, I guess for maybe a long time, it’s not always the safest place. The pendulum swings back and forth between what’s safe for celebrities to speak to. But maybe before we zoom back into Taylor, pausing and just looking at that paradigm. What do you think? What’s the right of a celebrity or an athlete? What’s their role or their responsibility in speaking out in leadership roles?

Allison:

Gosh, I probably have an unpopular opinion here. I think they can do and say whatever they want, just like you and I can. There are people who will say, “But you’re a role model to my kids.” And sure, but you’re also a parent to your kids. I think there’s a balance there. And it’s gray, so it’s very gray, right? Yeah, that’s my answer. What about you?

Ren:

Yeah, probably the constant tension between art and artist. I think that if I was someone who believed that artistry needs to stay in the realm of art, and take the product as such, but I’m probably aligned with you that the person is the artist and they’re allowed to exhibit and inhabit their own points of view. And so, I think, we live in a society as such that I have no qualms with an athlete or a musician speaking on the world they inhabit. And talk about me fighting against a tidal wave. If I did, 345 million people would remind me about how minuscule my point of view is.

So I think I’m probably most interested in this idea because we talk DAC at CCL, right? Direction, alignment, commitment. And what we’re really talking about there is the outcomes of the social process of leadership. You’ve heard us say this before, listener, but you are likely not the chief executive officer of your organization listening to this, and you’re still a critical leader in the organization. And so when we think about the social process of leadership and her involving that, I think as art and artists, she’s leaning into her social weight and involving people in this conversation of where we get to lead each other. We can’t just wait on others to lead us.

Allison:

Yeah. And I want to back up a little too, because I think this was in the documentary, if not a recent interview, that she was very aware that when she decided to speak out against certain politics that were important to her, and certain groups that she felt she wanted to support, she was aware of the risk. And so I think that her fan base probably continued to support her because of her honesty and transparency. And so, as long as she or celebrities rather are not harming people, just clarifying here, then I do think they should be able to say and communicate what they want, their point of view. But you’re right, she has a way of “leading” that involves her fan base. Again, I keep going back to this, but it’s very rare that you see that at the workplace.

You already translated, but leadership is a social process, and it’s regardless of position. We know that our organization is successful because everybody acts as a leader. And so if we back out of that, how do you get people to get used to that culture if that’s not the culture of your organization?

Ren:

I think it probably … proof in the pudding. I’m going back to your authenticity example, Taylor through action demonstrates her connection through her fandom. And I think in those spaces, if you really want to create a culture where people can engage in emergent leadership where they may not have a title or even a responsibility that comes up to decision-making, but you enable them to feel capable in doing so, then maybe that’s just, create the practice where someone does it and they don’t get in trouble for it. Or start to go slow, where you build the space to get that kind of feedback where you create the spaces for social leadership. And I think that’s what Taylor Swift has done when she engages or stands up to injustice, or whether it’s against her or around the world, it’s this opportunity to say, “Hey, Swifties or anyone who’s a fan of mine, I’m getting off the sidelines. If you agree with me, come join me.” And that’s an interesting, I think, motivational perspective. It seems to be working for her amongst her peers and the fans.

Allison:

Yeah. And again, back to the transparency piece too, she said in an interview, it was a few years ago, she said … I’m going to paraphrase here. She said, “It wouldn’t be right if I publicized some post that said how much I support and love the LGBTQ+ community, and then I voted against them, or I didn’t use my voice to try to encourage people to vote. Because I have this platform, I want to support that group.” And I think it might have been her dad (if I’m wrong, I’m sorry, Dad!), but I think it might have been her dad who really encouraged her not to do that. And again, back to that authenticity and bravery too. She said, “No, I’m doing it. I’m going to do it.” And she’s still here and thriving, so it’s okay. Yeah.

Ren:

I think Dad ran security, right? Isn’t that the story? He’s like, “I’m the one who puts bulletproof glass on your truck. I care.” And I think that’s something too. I had it down. It’s maybe her willingness to stand up for what she believes. And then leaders, as you were hearing us, as we were reflecting earlier, Taylor Swift has an ability to identify what she cares about that enables her to stand up for what she believes. And there’s a lot of instances in her career to do that. One I found most fascinating is this tension between, what are they called, Taylor’s Versions. So Taylor Swift had her masters and she was part of the record label, Big Machine. She moved to Universal, but in 2019, Big Machine, the record label, was sold to Scooter Braun, the name. He’s a talent manager. He manages many, many artists, one of whom is Kanye West.

And then Taylor Swift said, “Hey, since Big Machine’s going out of business, it’d be great if I could have my masters. Let’s do a deal.” Braun said, “No, you’re not getting your masters,” and he sold them off to a different firm in 2020. So Taylor said, “Okay. Well, here’s what I’m going to do.” And in 2021, she released her own rerecorded versions of all those songs, hoping to that that any licensing or any deals would be made toward her because she’s the artist and creator. That’s that connection to Spotify or Apple Music that I was saying earlier, she’s probably invested in that idea of artists being recognized. But too, just an interesting idea that there’d be so many places along the way where the system says no to you, and you look around and you’re like, okay, well, what could I do? What am I supposed to do? Randomly rerecord all those albums? And someone said, “Yeah.” And Taylor said, “Okay, I’m going to do it.”

Allison:

All right.

Ren:

Yeah. So I was like, as a leader, as you aim to qualify what you care about, being willing to stand up against it, even against the torrent of millions and millions of Kanye West stans, who would try to tear you down and belittle you because of him I think is really interesting.

Allison:

Yeah. And her perspective on that too, she said, again, paraphrasing something along the lines of, “In this day and age, people get fired up about one thing on a Tuesday, and then by Thursday they’re fired up about something new, so that’s why I’m going to stand my ground.” And she’s right about that. She is right about that. News trends, stories, come and go pretty quickly. So there’s an amount of bravery and courage that I ascribe to her, and also consistency. When you think about, you’ve mentioned brand and reputation, which is funny because I think she has an album album called Reputation. Anyhow, I’m pretty sure. And she’s been very consistent in how she presents herself to the world since she was what? What did you say? 14 or 13 is when she … She was quite young.

Ren:

She got her first deal at 14, first Platinum record at 16.

Allison:

Yeah, so we’ll just call it 16 is probably when she was known to the masses, and she’s been pretty consistent about how she shows up, and what she writes about, and what she’s communicating, and how she behaves as a businessperson, and what her expectations are too — which is also important in leadership, is clarifying those expectations, right? Like, okay, well, this is my music, so I’m going to go ahead and rerecord it. And she’s also acknowledged the privilege that she has in the ability to do that. But yeah, it comes back to knowing who you are, what you want to present to others, and being consistent in doing so, and transparent when there’s an obstacle.

Ren:

And I’d say maybe my last big trait for her that I really resonate with, too, is that tension between consistency and reinvention, because she’s been consistent and true to herself, but she’s not stale.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

She makes new things. She’s an actor as she diversifies her own portfolio. So this willingness to investigate yourself and then say, I’m shifting my course, or I’m adjusting, or I’m growing. That space for growth that she enables for herself is something that I’ve got to encourage you as a leader, and then you too, as someone who is being led, to grow. And to be in environments that enable you to grow, and to create environments that enable growth. And so she seems to been able to cultivate that within herself, that idea of reinvention. And so maybe the thing that bubbles up to the top for me out of all these things is composure. It’s standing up. But it’s this willingness to support her growth and stand up for that too.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I don’t know. What’s one thing that rises the top for you? I’m sorry, I feel like I interrupted you.

Allison:

Well, first I’m going to respond to what you said and then I’ll tell you.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

It’s an interesting parallel to business, too. And again, it’s not a direct parallel, but you could think about it, too, as if you are a business owner and you have a product or you sell a product, responding to the market, and responding to what’s happening in the market, and what your consumer wants. And again, I don’t think she necessarily … well, actually, I don’t know. But her music, as far as I understand it, is a lot of personal storytelling. And so it seems as if her product has stayed consistent in terms of what she’s delivering, but the story changes. Again, maybe I need to check myself on that, but that’s how I understand her music to be, is pretty consistent storytelling.

So again, transferring that to the workplace, you can have a product and be pretty grounded in what that product is, so long as you keep, to your point, evolving and shifting to the needs of what people want and people are asking for and the market demands, et cetera. She used to get teased a lot for writing heartbreak songs. I can think of one. She wrote a song about John Mayer a while ago, and people teased her about that, and then she just didn’t respond to it. She just kept going. And I appreciate that about her as well. That was real of her.

Ren:

Well, what I love about what you’re reflecting there is something that resonates. Not only is she responding to the market, but she responds to herself.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I think she’s really good at recognizing where she wants to go and she responds to the market, but she doesn’t cower do it, or is that right? Kowtow? Cower to it? Help me out, world, if you’re yelling at us.

Allison:

She doesn’t cater to it.

Ren:

She doesn’t cater to it, but she caters to it a little bit, but she’s not slave to it, maybe.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

She doesn’t let it lord over her, and I think that’s an important discernment too, like you were saying, in that last example, where people get on her about making a love song and her response is zero response. She’s like, “I’m going to do me, dude. And by the way, can I point to all the things that Ren said at the top about my successful career?” She’s like, “Suck an egg, whatever.” And I guess maybe you have that position because you’ve been kicking ass for a decade. But I’m always astounded by her ability to be like, well, this is at least my true north for now, and I’m going to stick to it.

Allison:

And I saw a clip of her this morning. My phone must have been catching on to me.

Ren:

Listening to us.

Allison:

So it sent me a clip on social media of her being interviewed by, I don’t know who, someone. And she says, again, paraphrasing, she says something along the lines of her desire is to stop being apologetic for who she is as a human. And she says something like —

Ren:

Amen, sister.

Allison:

… “You’re criticizing me for the house that I live in, that I bought with my money based on the hard work that I did, and that I will continue to do, so no, I’m not going to sit down.” And I just appreciate that she worked very hard for what she has and continues to be who she is. So I think you’re right. There’s a delicate balance of being the leader that you are and standing in those truths and also responding to those around you. You asked me, though, what’s top of mind, and what was top of mind going into this conversation was her connection to her fan base and how it does, to a lot of Swifties, feel like a community. And I think when leaders are empowered to focus on a culture and the environment in that way, in similar ways that she cares for herself first, she also cares for her fan base and shows that she does, and she’s more effective that way.

And I think in the workplace, a leader can be more effective that way by caring for themselves first. We talk about this a lot, self-awareness: What am I bringing to the table? What do I want to bring to the table? Am I doing that? And then they have space to be more impactful for others. So as individuals on their teams, the organization becomes more successful too. And sometimes as an organization, you can even impact a community around you, and I think Taylor Swift certainly does this. But what our research has found is that leaders can do this in 4 ways, and it does start with that self-awareness and self-compassion too, which a lot of people find to be challenging. And only from there can you prioritize a climate of respect and psychological safety.

Another key piece of that as a leader is the ability to expand your perspective and say, I’m not in the LGBT community, but I wonder what it is they’re facing. I wonder what life is like for them. And the ability to broaden your perspective and really seek to understand others. And then from there, take meaningful action like we’ve seen Taylor Swift do. So that’s really what stood out to me. And if you have seen her documentary, then you’ll see that she’s done that. But I think there’s a good translation to the workplace and those 4 behaviors.

Ren:

Yeah, she’s interesting. She’s a super interesting character. I think her career has been really interesting to watch. And I think part of the reason why we wanted to talk about her now, or at least why I wanted to talk about her, is we look around at these public figures and start to diagnose some of the actions or behaviors that they make or that they take, the things they say or do, and just the access to people they have. I asked you a question earlier where you stood on the “Should artists speak up or not?” And I honestly feel like people who say they shouldn’t are people who are frightened for them to get into the fray because of the posture that they have, the box that they can stand on, the podium, and how many people will listen.

So there’s a lot of things I’m interested to see about what happens next, and there’s some interesting test cases for her around decisions she’s made, but also interested to see where her career goes, and if we’ll be doing another profile on her, or maybe a more precise profile on her later in life. But as you think about her future, what’s next around either leadership or Taylor Swift? Are you curious to see anything? Anything that we should be looking out for?

Allison:

With Taylor Swift?

Ren:

Yeah. Are you curious to see things that she’ll say or do that either further stabilize who she is, or you think, what does the next reinvention of T. Swift look like?

Allison:

Okay, there are 2 things that come to mind for me. So, after we decided we were going to talk about Taylor Swift, I of course did the Googling and started investigating what is a Swiftie? What are the Swifties up to? Her fans, right? So right now, the trend is that the Swifties think that there are hidden messages within her lyrics that are telling about who she is, and that she might be coming out with some more information about who she is as a human being. Now, I’m not Swiftie, so I can’t speak to that directly, but I am curious to see if she decides to use her voice in any way in 2024, given that it’s an election year. I’d be curious to see if she replicates that. What about you?

Ren:

Yeah. I’m similarly curious about that. How much more will she put her voice behind the things she cares about? She endorsed Joe Biden in 2020, and so for whatever that is or however you feel about that, she’s likely going to do something similar for whomever she endorses again. So I’m curious to see how people react to it, because her fandom’s split on her decision to do that. You have 330 million followers, when you think about America, you’re like, okay, there’s a lot of red and a lot of blue in those followers, so not everyone’s going to agree with her.

I’d say another curiosity I have, too, is this battle that she’s throwing as an artist with those re-recorded songs of hers.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

As a good news, I think I was reading Taylor’s Version, either a playlist from all of those songs or those re-released albums, those were one of those most streamed albums on Spotify ever. So if her goal was to have her IP, her music, or her masters, be honored as such, it seems to be working out. But it’d be curious to see if that holds true. And then will artists say, Well, screw you. If you don’t give my masters, I’m going to make my own? So those things I would like to keep an eye on and see what happens next.

Allison:

So, one last thing that just now just came up for me when you were speaking is that 300 and whatever million people who follow her, right? You’re probably right, politically, there’s probably a lot of different opinions in that 300 million people, and they still followed her after that.

Ren:

Interesting.

Allison:

It’s a bold move. Well, you don’t see it often. You don’t see artists often endorse candidates. Not very common to outright endorse a candidate like that. And so maybe this’ll be another episode, but it just makes me think again about trust. And when you trust somebody, how much more likely you are to not abandon somebody just because of their opinion on certain topics? So perhaps that’s a conversation for another time, but she seems to have gained the trust of her Swiftie fans for sure. So things for leaders to think about: How can you produce more trust in your organization? And what would that mean for you? What would that mean for your teams? So that’s the last thing that I’m going to leave you with, Ren. What are your lingering thoughts for our listeners?

Ren:

Well, I love the ending where we started, because I think that trust comes from that authenticity, and the authenticity demonstrated to people that Taylor Swift is just like you. She loves, she hurts, she’s happy, she’s a human. And I realize that that wasn’t my takeaway for this episode, but I’m reminded as we do all of this work, we’re going to be better off when we look at each other as people. And if we could get close to treating people like the people we care about, man, oh man, wouldn’t it look different? And so I know it’s not always easy to do that, and so then maybe my major takeaway and something that I think Taylor can tell all of us is, I can understand why you might be afraid to use your voice, but don’t be afraid to use your voice.

And I know now in America, it’s not safe for a lot of us to use your voice, whatever side of the aisle you’re on, it’s dangerous out there to say your truth. And what I mean, though, is speak your truth with kindness and generosity. Don’t be afraid to use your voice to stand up for others. Don’t be afraid to stand up for yourself. And I think, in spirit, if we’re looking at each other like those we care about, then it’s probably going to serve us not to be afraid of using our voice. So that’s maybe my last one there, Allison.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s well said. I think that’s a great place to end and appreciate the conversation and just love that we were able to formulate some leadership lessons around Taylor Swift. And to our listeners, as always, you can find our show notes and all of our podcasts on ccl.org. And a special thank you to Emily and Ryan who work behind the scenes to make our podcast happen, and to our listeners and our Swifties who are listening, and maybe even Taylor Swift herself —

Ren:

Taylor.

Allison:

… find us on LinkedIn, let us know what you think. Let us know what you took away from this episode, and we’ll look forward to tuning in with you next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everyone. Taylor, find Allison on TikTok!

Interview Transcript

INTRO: 

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

“Earth is now our only stakeholder.” That was written by Yvon Chouinard on September 14th as Patagonia’s billionaire founder gave away his company to Mother Earth. It’s actually a pretty cool video on Instagram if you haven’t seen it. Instead of selling Patagonia and taking the company public, Chouinard has given the 3 billion outdoor brand to a family trust and a not-for-profit called the Holdfast Collective. The goal with the creation of these entities is to put any profit not reinvested back into Patagonia towards fighting climate change, and at its best, it’ll look like something like a hundred million dollars a year donated directly to saving our planet.

Now, at a time when more and more billionaires are getting on board with “doing the right thing,” at first glance, this action might not seem extraordinary. But after digging in and investigating the differences between the sale of Patagonia in this instance, and the sale of so many other organizations, we see a difference here. Maybe this “dirtbag capitalist” has been walking the talk for decades and this is just his magnum opus. Either way, when the founder in the face of a $3 billion organization does something this drastic, we have to talk about it. And while Yvon Chouinard is an amazing character and will likely get his own episode one day, we’ll use his actions and some of his ethos as a lens to explore some bigger topics.

Today we’ll talk about an organization’s role in doing the right thing, talk about the kind of leaders that it takes to do the right thing, and some of the spaces in between. Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, does a leader have an inherent responsibility to society?

Allison:

So Ren, we start our podcast in the same way, right? You intro and you ask me a question.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

It’s fall. What do you say we shake it up a bit, and you can answer your own question first?

Ren:

I have to go first?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Is that just an autumn thing?

Allison:

We’re living in some strange times right now, so I’m just honoring the uncertainty that we’re living in.

Ren:

Does a leader have an inherent responsibility to society? I don’t know if there’s inherent responsibility to society at large in leadership, so no.

Allison:

Okay. I want to read something to you that might be familiar.

Ren:

All right.

Allison:

So humor me here. So: our mission is to advance the understanding practice and development of leadership for the benefit of society worldwide. Simply put, we strive to make the world a better place through more effective leadership. What do you think about that?

Ren:

I think an organization like that probably has some very stellar podcast hosts that work for them, but that sounds interesting. Now, I don’t know if I hear inherent responsibility in there, but I imagine-

Allison:

Benefit of society.

Ren:

Uh-huh. The benefit of society. I agree that leadership might benefit society, but is there inherent responsibility in leadership to benefit society? Question mark. I’m not sure. Just so we’re clear, what was that you read?

Allison:

That would be the one and only mission statement from the Center for Creative Leadership.

Ren:

Just where we work.

Allison:

And I bring that up in jest, right? Because you’re right, there’s maybe some gray in there. What does benefit mean? We could get really granular. And when you and I were talking last week about this specific podcast, I immediately thought, “Well, yes, of course they do.” And my thoughts are that a company, an organization, is an entity that exists within society. And so an organization is not its own sovereign nation. So it exists within the society that you and I live and the rest of human beings live. So there’s an impact to an organization existing in society just as much as the stream in my backyard has an impact. A different impact. But the same people that you work with also exist in the society in which you live. And so most organizations do have an impact on society. You mentioned this in the intro a little bit. They have an impact on the society. They have an impact on the environment, standards of living, and so on and so forth. So it would be a yes for me, an implied yes. And I think… Well, curious what your response is.

Ren:

Yeah. And I know eventually we’ll maybe get back to Yvon and what he did with Patagonia, but I don’t know if there’s an implied responsibility. There’s some interesting frames there when we think about leadership and the role of an individual that participates in a society. I think that’s a really interesting idea. You, I, people in our organization, they engage in society. They have to follow the rules of the culture they inhabit. But when I look at organizations, some of them, I don’t know if they operate in society. Sometimes I think they operate parallel to it or even outside of it.

I mean, why is this such a marvel? Companies don’t often say, “You know what I’m going to do? I’m here to help the society in which I operate.” Leaders don’t often say that, so much so that when this guy does something like this, people are like, “No possible way. Why would he do that? That doesn’t make any sense.” So the inherent responsibility is probably what I’m poking at that. And maybe to the means of, if we think it’s inherent, then we might just wait for leaders to, air quoting our favorite thing here, “do the right thing.” But maybe people are looking around, like, “I don’t know, is my responsibility to society or is my responsibility to the people who’ve signed my check?”

Allison:

So the thing with talking about organizations is that an entity is a piece of paper. An organization is run by human beings, period. And so if you go into the 4 walls of an organization… Well, some of us are not even going into the 4 walls of an organization anymore, but if we’re operating for an organization, then why would a company have a mission statement that oftentimes, more oftentimes than not, the mission statement and the values are directed towards society at large.

And so I think what Patagonia has always done well is that they challenge the assumptions that most people have about the workplace. And so we could get into the nuances of being in a capitalist environment, because that’s a fact: we’re in a capitalist environment. Capitalism inherently thrives with competition, accumulation of capital, signing checks, if you will, profit… However, Patagonia, since conception, has always aimed to be a sustainable organization and is a really great example of what it means to operate with the company values as a priority versus operating with a priority to profit. And you highlighted in the intro that they are a profitable company. So it’s a win-win, so why would you not?

Ren:

And they may be one of the few examples who have been as steadily committed to returning back to the world in which they live. I think you point to organization’s mission statements and I point to them, and I think about the people that I’ve worked with and the people that I’ve come across in my life, and I don’t know how many of them could read to me right now their mission statement by heart. I think about some organizations that have a really, really fantastic performative mission statement but functionally operate in the globe that enables them to operate as the globe does. And so again, and maybe we’ll start to expand on this more, sometimes I don’t know if I can depend on people to do things other than what they’re motivated or rewarded to do.

I was just reading this article, and this gentleman named Ted Clark, Executive Director of the Northeastern University Center for Family Businesses, and he was reflecting on this situation, saying what makes capitalism so successful is that there’s motivation to succeed. And he was saying this in reflection to part of the family trust in this Holdfast Collective is that Chouinard and people like him are stepping away from making the business profitable to keep the business alive. And Clark’s suggestion, he continues to say: if you take all the financial incentives away, the family will have essentially no more interest in it except the longing for the good old days.

Now I think Ted, what he’s saying is people are not interested in the wellbeing of others unless it benefits themselves. And I think I’m inclined to agree with him. Again, Chouinard is an example of this. I don’t know if we remember the space race between the billionaires earlier this summer, but they could have fed countless people. Instead they were like, “You know what? I’m going to see the curvature of the Earth, baby.”

Allison:

Oh absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And what’s interesting is you’re getting me to think about how company culture is developed, and you talked about that a little bit too. And when we talk about culture, which we often do at CCL, one thing I think that people neglect to consider is that the external culture of the organization will inform the organization’s culture.

So the United States, for example, if we’re just talking about the US right now, the US is an individualist culture. That’s not right, wrong or bad, but it’s one of the most individualist cultures in the world. So this means that the majority of human beings in the United States focus on I versus we, and they focus on the needs of themselves versus the needs of the “we,” the community, the society, et cetera. And there are of course benefits and opportunities to this type of culture, but I think what we’re seeing is perhaps this going to the extreme.

So some of the benefits of being individualist are innovation, achievement, which you’ve mentioned, and growth, which again is what companies often want. However, some of the downfalls are pretty dramatic. Downfalls of an individualist culture are lower emotional intelligence, lack of empathy for others, which impacts mental health, so poor mental health as a community or a nation and a general lack of support between people.

And so I think what Patagonia has done well is challenge the culture; challenge the external culture, if you will. Their company culture has always been somewhat of a golden nugget that marketing classes and Forbes and probably a lot of other podcasters like to talk about, because it does challenge those systems. And so, given the state of some of the things that have happened in our world recently, I think it’s no surprise that empathy and emotional intelligence and having perspective is one of the most sought-after leadership skills right now. So do you think Patagonia could be a model of shifting perspectives?

Ren:

Patagonia did not do this out of its own volition. This move did not come out of a stakeholder, meaning this move came directly from the founder, who told the executives, “I’m going to start cold-calling people to sell this business if you all don’t find a way for me to put the money we’re making back into the earth.” And so I guess what I’m coming to… And I’m vibing with what you’re saying and for me, it’s just, I don’t know if I can round it up to the organization, which in reality, a publicly traded organization…

Also something that might make this unique: Patagonia was never publicly traded. So they only had themselves as their stakeholders. So once you start getting them publicly traded… And even Chouinard himself said, “I don’t respect the stock market at all.” He said, “Once you’re public, you’ve lost control over the company. You have to maximize profits with a shareholder, then you become one of those irresponsible companies.”

And I think that’s the business model that we see, where a lot of companies, because of their imperative, what they’re tasked to do… I’m not here to demonize a company making money because it’s organized to supported shareholders. But to your question, can Patagonia model, I think Yvon Chouinard might have to be the model of a leader who is willing to do that. But you said Patagonia is a golden nugget. It’s like he is this weird unicorn.

I said dirtbag capitalist earlier, and that’s a friendly moniker that the people who know this billionaire capitalist… Because he doesn’t even have a computer or a cell phone, he drives this old Subaru, he’s this rock climber who sleeps on New York Times’ writers’ couches when he’s in New York. So I mean, he said, “I never didn’t know what to do with the company because I didn’t ever want a company.”

And so I don’t know if Patagonia is a model. It remains to be seen. I think he might be a model for what you could do. The company now is going to be put into an interesting position as the Holdfast or rather as the family trust, the Patagonia Purpose Trust, Chouinard and the family members, they’re going to organize the business still. We’ll see if it continues to make money at a level that they hope to donate.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

So I don’t know if I answered your question. Yes, maybe. Yes, maybe Patagonia can model if they… But we have to watch. It remains to be seen.

Allison:

What’s interesting too is that in order for them to achieve that goal of giving back to the environment, to your point, they have to make a profit. So it’s really interesting. And in order to make a profit, what are they doing to make a profit? And so I did some reading, as I’m sure you did as well, and it is: can you be a sustainable company that is ethical within a capitalist environment? I don’t know the answer to that, but it’s worth considering. We probably won’t answer that today and that’s all right. But he makes strides, right? So can you exist in this system, that having a goal of being ethical and sustainable might be counterintuitive to the system?

And some of the things that Patagonia has done that’s really interesting to me is that they had in the past tremendous opportunity to co-brand and really accelerate their profits; however, refused to co-brand with companies that are actively doing harm or not actively seeking to support the environment. And that is a privilege to be able to say no to that. But they also started the Fair Labor Association in partnership with a few other retailers like Nike. That was a long time ago.

But they had gotten called out for unfair labor practices. And so he said, “You know what? I actually don’t want to behave this way. Let’s turn this around.” And they were also accused of animal cruelty. That was a very long time ago in Europe. And they took ownership and changed the way that they sourced down. They do still ask consumers to think twice before purchasing; “Do you really need that or do you just want it?” Which I think is interesting. Could it be performative? Maybe. I don’t know.

But they also provide videos for consumers, showing customers how to fix their product so they don’t have to over-consume. So it’s interesting. If the product gets worn out, by the way too, you can also send it back and they’ll use it to make something else or they’ll recycle it. So they also consider where they’re sourcing materials. They don’t source from lands that will inevitably put people on that land at risk of losing their own resources. So I think they’re actively… It’s just an interesting dichotomy, I suppose. A billionaire who’s actively trying to create a sustainable environment when perhaps what got him to billionaire status maybe was being or acting in ways that are unsustainable. I don’t know. I don’t know. But that amount of consumption to get to billionaire status, you would think there had to be a tremendous amount of using resources.

Ren:

Yeah. Three things that makes me think of, and I’m going to say them out loud so you can help me remember: one of them has to do with that last thing, how do we get here and what did I do to get here? The other one is this balance between maybe this idea of performance and service. And then there was another one that had to do with something you said earlier: can a company or operate ethically in our environment?

And so to the last thing that you said, it’s a personal pet peeve of mine about any leader that says, “Hey, I’ve made it to the mountain.” You all have heard this before and I’m going to keep saying it. It’s like, “I’m on the tippy-top of the mountain. Now that I’m here, don’t come up here. You shouldn’t come up here. It wasn’t worth it.” I don’t know necessarily if Patagonia has been that way. I think some of the practices you’ve highlighted is they’ve had a lifelong footprint of maybe better business practices. Again, it boils down to the founder, I think, back to Yvon.

So that could be a different podcast for us, around people saying, “Well, now that I’m here, don’t do it that way.” Anyone who looks at China for pollution, since they’re making the world’s goods, but we’re like, “You guys should chill out on the coal usage.” Well, maybe we should stop buying things from those plants that cost coal. Also a different podcast. Can an organization operate ethically in this? I think the other question is, are they incentivized to? And typically, I would say no, but it looks like maybe you’ve got a response to that.

Allison:

Well, why do you think people need to be incentivized to be ethical?

Ren:

I don’t think they need to be. It’s more of, I’m a realist about it. If I’m not incentivized to be ethical, but I might be greatly incentivized to be ambiguously ethical… I look around the world, Allison, and I go, “There seems like a lot of people indexing on the moral ambiguity at best for business purposes and not super ethical.” It’s just the world I see around me.

Allison:

Yeah, so to clarify, I don’t mean you as an ethical person. I mean, why do you think that is a thing for society? Exactly what you just said, where there’s maybe less interested in behaving ethically and more interested in behaving profitably.

Ren:

Well I think one meta-psychological reason, which I might get to, which was my third point that I did not forget; I’m high-fiving myself over here. But the other one might very well be that it takes longer.

Allison:

To be ethical?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

And the risk of it taking longer is what?

Ren:

Which I guess brings me to my second paradigm here, and the last point that I started to think about here and even you and I were talking about. It’s this tension between service and performance. And Rich Been, shout-out, one of our colleagues at CCL, Rich Been, he’s awesome. If you ever get a chance to work with him, if you ever see him on one of your programs, just fly to San Diego to go work with him, because it’s worth it. So this is his golden nugget. I’m going to give him credit a few times and then I’m stealing it, Rich. Sucks for you. But he said service versus performance when we were doing some work together and this idea that service is a we-first paradigm; performance is a me-first paradigm.

And so when I think about this idea of ethical action and this thing, I think people don’t want to take time to be ethical because it impacts potentially performance. We always say at the Center, “Slow down to speed up,” and people look at us like, “We don’t have time to slow down. I’ve got this job to do.” And so they’ve got this performance drive, this me-first drive, and I think that mitigates ethical behavior, but also, we’ve been rewarded most of our lives for performing. “Alison, you get a job, do this. Oh congratulations, you met your goal, now do more.” And that’s been our lives. And I think shifting to a we-first mentality is that service orientation, where I start to look at the others and what can I do for them.

Maybe Patagonia and Yvon Chouinard are an example of saying, “What can I do for my customer?” Like you said, all those examples of… They have the ads: “Don’t buy this coat,” or, “Let me teach you how to fix this coat.” Now what can I do for you?” And it’s funny; when Yvon posted a thing on Instagram about Earth is our earth is our only stakeholder now, Patagonia had one of its most profitable days it’s ever had in recent history and ever in the business. And so it’s almost this counterintuitive posture of if I do service first, which is a we-first, all of a sudden it boosts my performance. But really, I think so many people are benefiting from just the performance mindset that they’re not incentivized to not only not be ethical, because why? It slows me down. And I look around and I go, “Oh, it seems to be working.”

Allison:

Yeah. So I have 2 things, and one is very important, but however, I’m going to take a left turn here. This is very important. Did you just admit to being on Instagram, and this whole time you say in our podcast, you’ll never find me on social media? Are you on Instagram?

Ren:

Well, A, I’m not going to answer that question, and B, next question.

Allison:

I think we have our answer, friends. Ren is on Instagram.

Ren:

No, I’m really… No, if you see Instagram, you can watch Instagram things on the internet. So if you think you can find me, I assure you, you’ll never find me.

Allison:

Okay, well, I’m just saying, it’s going to be my own personal mission to find you on social media. Okay. The second thing is… I want to make sure I’m understanding you correctly. Yes, Rich Been is amazing, so I want to underline that as well. Service versus performance. So can it be service and performance? I think that’s what you’re saying. Patagonia has highlighted that having a service-first attitude has increased their overall performance as a company, whether or not they intended that to happen or not. Is that what you’re saying?

Ren:

Well, I’m saying yes, there can be such a thing as service and performance, but in this instance, in Patagonia’s act of service, they had some of their best performance. And so it wasn’t even, “Let’s do both.” It was actually, “Let’s just do the service thing,” and then they opened up the doors for service and then, boom, they had massive performance.

Now I think in the reality of the space of gray, me personally, I think service and performance is probably a better way to look at it, more realistic. But in this particular instance, I was more highlighting that their active service alone, with seemingly no other reasoning, led to massive performance. So maybe that small tweak. I don’t know if that’s relevant.

Allison:

Yeah. Let’s stay on that for a second. So if I am a leader at an organization and we just met, how can I better be in service? What does that look like, to be in service? If I’m not the CEO and I’m not a billionaire, what does that look like? Or what can it look like?

Ren:

I think it’s a we-first question and it’s a recognition of the narrative and narrator that’s spinning up in your head. Another thing that Rich was saying in that same context, and we were all discussing this in the room as we were starting to explore this thing around, God, what’s the talk track? If you’re condemning or belittling or talking about your own lack of performance, then that’s a me-first kind of thing. And so maybe a service force as a manager or leader or someone who’s not a billionaire CEO is starting to ask, “What do people need from me?” Not, “What do I think my good performance looks like?” But, “What do people need from me to amplify their performance?” That might be something that someone could tactically think about.

Allison:

What if you don’t know the answer to that? And I’m not trying to put you on the spot. I’m genuinely curious. What if you don’t know the answer?

Ren:

The answer to?

Allison:

“What do people need from me?”

Ren:

I find out, and I involve them directly in why I’m asking the question. And that’s one of my big things these days too, is if you do all this development and then people are like, “Sweet, I’m going to change,” and then they go back to work and they change and then people call us and like, “What the hell did you do to So-and-so? Why are they acting all weird?”

And it’s because people go back and they are acting weird, because they’re doing a whole bunch of stuff without inviting anyone in like, “Hey, by the way, I went to this thing. They said try this thing, so I’m trying this thing.” And so sometimes I’d seek to say, “I’m getting a vibe right now that I really want to interject here, but I don’t think that’s adding value. And in fact, this is what I’m thinking you all need or you need from me.” Does that make sense? And you validate. You vet the ask. And then what do you need?

And I don’t know if that’s the answer all of the time, but when we look Chouinard and Patagonia, it seems like whatever their personal ethos or the organizational ethos was, that’s what service meant. So maybe that’s another thing as I wind my way through your question is… If not, it’s only asking, but then maybe qualifying for me, what does service look like, so I can embody it? Service for Patagonia, unsurprisingly, with a mountain-climber founder who sleeps on couches and is a billionaire, he wants to give back to the world that’s given him everything, and that’s what service looked like. So all of those things.

Allison:

Yeah, all of those things. So if we come back to the beginning of the podcast where we talked about clarifying, does a leader have an ethical responsibility? Is that what you asked? An ethical responsibility to society?

Ren:

And inherent responsibility.

Allison:

And inherent.

Ren:

Does a leader have an inherent responsibility? Is responsibility to society part of leadership?

Allison:

And is your answer still no to that?

Ren:

My answer’s still no to that.

Allison:

Okay. I won’t make us reconvene and do another 30 minutes of me interrogating you about that, but what I will ask is, are you same human being when you shut your laptop for the day?

Ren:

Mostly.

Allison:

How mostly?

Ren:

Because I have to talk for a living, I talk less when I shut my laptop.

Allison:

Is that the only difference?

Ren:

Likely not. Maybe I should ask you, what’s the root of your question? What are you trying to get at?

Allison:

Oh, I’m not going to tell you that. We’ll get there. We’ll get there.

Ren:

Oh, okay. Well, I mean, yeah, probably a cavalcade of things. Again, I think if someone chooses to benefit society, God bless them. Do I think that’s an inherent responsibility on everybody’s shoulder? Whether or not I believe it is, doesn’t mean that it has to be.

Allison:

So clarifying further, you are a leader at CCL. You are. So you don’t have a responsibility to others? Because society means others in this context.

Ren:

If you were to press me and you were to point at my job description, I would ask you to say, okay, where does it say… Okay, if I’m a people manager, sure, I’ve got a responsibility.

Allison:

No, no. I’m asking you as Ren. Just Ren. Just you.

Ren:

Me personally.

Allison:

You personally.

Ren:

Do I feel like I have an inherent responsibility to others?

Allison:

Get rid of the word inherent. It’s tripping you up. Do you have a responsibility?

Ren:

No, it’s not.

Allison:

Yes, it is. You’re focusing way too hard on it.

Ren:

Do I have responsibility?

Allison:

Do you have a responsibility to others?

Ren:

Yeah. Yeah, I do.

Allison:

Okay. So why does that change when we’re not talking specifically about leadership?

Ren:

Because I’ve known plenty of people, and I guess I could be in a position where I tell you, no, I don’t have a responsibility to others outside of what I’m asked to do.

Allison:

But we’re talking about you.

Ren:

Yeah. So for me, and then maybe that’s my point, and maybe that’s the whole point with Patagonia and Chouinard and why we can’t rely on leadership alone to help society when we need to coax and cultivate it. I think I have a responsibility to others, and therefore, a responsibility to society, me personally, because it is a value to me? It is part of my ethos. Now, I don’t know if that has to be a mandate for someone in a leadership position.

Allison:

Interesting. And can you define leadership for me?

Ren:

My personal example, I think you can find on that similar sighted website that it’s a social process where people work collectively towards accomplishing a task and a goal. I would say that someone who is looked to to accomplish a task or help people accomplish a task is a leader in leadership.

Allison:

And would you agree that organizations exist within society?

Ren:

Sometimes.

Allison:

How do they not exist within society? Where are they?

Ren:

You tell me how many billionaires and companies exist that you’ve never heard of that have their money and some offshore untaxable accounts where they actually stand above or outside of society, is what I might say. But that’s a different podcast.

Allison:

Okay, that’s a different podcast.

Ren:

Sure, sure.

Allison:

Maybe we’re defining society differently. But what I’m getting at here… By the way, if I could go back and do school all over again, I would be a lawyer. If you’re wondering why I like to interrogate you, that would be one of the reasons. So thank you for humoring me. Thank you.

Ren:

No problem. If I could be go back in time, I would be a wealthy defense client.

Allison:

Fair enough. Fair enough. But I think what we’re getting at is exactly to what you talked about earlier, which is service versus performance, and maybe that’s a better question. Does a leader at the workplace have a responsibility to be in service to others, and does it benefit them? And it sounds like, from what you were saying, that yes, it does benefit both you and the organization to be in service to others.

Ren:

I think it does. And I think when people do it, when they lean into that counterintuitive space, they might be shocked with the results. Where, instead of removing me and my performance from the apex of the thing I’m trying to accomplish and then putting we in that spot, I think people are like, “Well, what happens to me then? Don’t I naturally drop off?”

And I think, no. When you put we first, you actually start to look around and everything starts to do better. You start performing better, the people around you start performing better, the organization performs better than it ever has. And so yeah, I think it’s fair to say that despite my evasiveness to your question, I promise I’m not as callous and cold as I look. I do see the value of a we-first mentality and the advantages of maybe having a responsibility to society.

Allison:

And I think what you’re highlighting for me is around something you said earlier: how many people can recite their mission statement or even one of their values? How many people can? And I think that is something that we can, as organizations, learn from Patagonia, especially if you are a senior leader or higher. It is having a clear purpose and clear values, and purpose impacts the values and the beliefs of your brand. So it also impacts and informs the behaviors of those who will work for and with the brand.

And so I think that’s something that CCL does really well also, is have a clear understanding of what we mean by leadership and what we are trying to do and collectively doing that together. Do we have our moments? Of course we do. However, I do think that a good idea for leaders is to vet every single strategy to ensure that it does align with that purpose and value statement first, because what Patagonia has highlighted is that that works. Their initiative is to support the environment monetarily, and them living and aligning every strategy with their purpose and values first has shown to be quite successful.

Ren:

And I would encourage then anyone who’s in that space, where you don’t have the luxury of a private owner who’s not at the sway of stakeholders, to manage that tension between really highlighting those places where mission is part of the results you’re getting. And I think it’s going to be easily overlooked or surpassed or we go for the easy win. And so in the true spirit of the service versus performance, I think as I’m rounding into my takeaways, I love yours, and would just echo the idea that maybe that momentary pause or lapse and push of effort actually will benefit you, where you’ll get people on board, even if you’re trying to hit the bottom line and that’s the only imperative you have, then something a little bit more mission-focused around it might amplify your results.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s great.

Ren:

It’s interesting to see that stuff at work out there.

Allison:

Power in the pause. There’s power in the pause is what you’re saying.

Ren:

Yes. Yes.

Allison:

And I think the one takeaway I’ll leave with is something that you said that’s sticking with me, if you are a leader at the workplace, regardless of your leader level, is to ask yourself, “What do others need from me?” and start there.

Ren:

Love it.

Allison:

Well, Ren, thanks for the conversation and thank you for suggesting that we can find you on Instagram, and thank you for letting me interrogate you a little bit.

Ren:

It’s never going to happen. It’s my pleasure.

Allison:

To our listeners, you can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. You can find us on LinkedIn. Let us know what you want us to talk about. Let us know what you think as well. What do you think about ethical leadership? Do you think that leaders have a responsibility to society? Let us know what you think, and we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, folks.

Ren:

Thanks a bunch. Find Allison on TikTok. She’s so humble. See you next time.

Allison:

Bye.