Interview Transcript

Intro:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk our current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Today, we’re diving into one of the most challenging yet crucial responsibilities a manager and leader holds: creating space for tough conversations. Or rather, conversations that are hard to have.

Managing a team, leading people, isn’t just about setting goals and tracking progress or ensuring projects stay on track, it’s also about fostering an environment where honest and sometimes uncomfortable discussions can take place. Whether it’s addressing performance issues, giving and receiving feedback, or tackling sensitive topics, these conversations often shape the team’s culture, trust, and resilience, and shape the landscape of the organizations we work in.

In this episode, we’ll talk about why creating a safe space for these difficult dialogues is so important; how a manager and leader can build trust to encourage openness; some practical strategies, maybe, to lead with empathy, courage, some clarity. And if you’re a manager or a leader listening out there, or just someone looking to make your team communication better, this might just be for you. So let’s dive in and learn how to lead with some openness and strength.

Ren:

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, we were talking about this earlier, but what do you think? What is the manager’s role to be like, “Hey, things are happening, how you feeling, everybody? Tell me.” I was like, “Let’s maybe just start there.” Is it your boss’s job to do that for you?

Allison:

That is such a hard question to answer, and I will give the CCL answer, and then I won’t leave us there. But we say a lot in the classroom that it depends, and it really does. It really, really does.

I do think it’s a manager’s responsibility, regardless of what they perceive the elephant in the room to be, to … I’m questioning myself even as I speak, so humor me. I do think it can be a manager’s responsibility, if there is a certain tone of a group, to address that. So I’ll start there. And again, that even becomes a little gray as I say it. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah, is it a manager’s responsibility? What I think is that these questions are being asked, and that may not mean anything, but I was just having this discussion with a client. And I’m actually trying to find the email because she said something really interesting in response to some of the ideas that I offered for her about how she might help manage some of the space. And we might talk about some of them today, but it was interesting.

One of the things that I said was recognize that events happen, and this particular event happened, and she said, “Yeah, recognizing the event, though, is the hard part.” And so I think I’d say, yeah, it depends. And I guess it comes down to what are the ground rules that we’ve set for our kind of communication, and then do we have any flexibility and space for it?

And so I’ll answer, again, where I started. These questions are being asked, people are experiencing it. I mean, when we talk about stuff like big, major events, especially sometimes when the big, major events … half the United States is happy and the other half is not happy, and maybe that’s not exactly what happened this time around, but I think people are still coming to work, having stayed up late, figuring out whether they were going to be happy or not.

And so, if it’s not my manager’s job, my manager better be prepared that I’m going to have a different experience of work. Regardless of how the outcome went for me, my day is going to look a certain way.

Allison:

Yeah. And you raise a couple of interesting things I want to dig into. And first I’ll say this, that I was also discussing with a client. This was … What’s today’s date? Today’s November 8th that we’re recording. And so this conversation that I’m going to reference with a client was months ago. It might’ve been late spring. And they said to me, “Conversations that used to happen outside of work are now coming to work.”

And so that is a major difference. So if we want to be looking at this as objectively as possible, there are conversations that might be perceived as deeply personal that are now coming into the workplace, whereas I suppose they didn’t always. And so what is a manager’s responsibility?

Ren:

Yeah, before you go on, real quick, it’s different from when? Was there a point when this wasn’t happening? I’m just curious.

Allison:

I mean, I think so. Probably. Think about the first salaried job you ever had. Mine … Or not, even. Or not. Think about the first job you had that was even hourly. It doesn’t matter, right? Where you were going to work. And I think about mine. I mean, I was quite young, and I just showed up and sold books like, “How was your day,” kind of thing.

Even if I fast-forward, I was quite young, so let’s get into more adulthood, where I’m trying not to name certain events because I don’t want to go there just yet. But there were not monumental events that were impacting people’s livelihood, I think, in the way that they are now. I think it’s just different. So to put a marker on it, it’s a little hard. But I think a lot of folks are being impacted by life events, global events that are occurring, in a different way. I sound like I’m 95, but in a different way than they used to.

Ren:

Well, this is weird, I don’t know why this popped up, like the Iran–Contra affair, or things that happened like that, or these hostage events where Jimmy Carter’s got to talk down these bad guys … I think that was impacting people when that was happening. And maybe things are impacting us more and more because of the internet, or social, or the computers we have in our hands all the time.

But I don’t know if we have to debate that. I wonder, when I hear it’s different now, and I often ponder, is it different? Or … And I wonder if this is a truth, and maybe around our tough conversations, or are we less skilled than ever in having these conversations in a way where we can work next to someone that we disagree with? Because we live next to people that we disagree with all the time. Sometimes the secret is we don’t talk about our disagreements.

Now, I know that doesn’t work for all of the unjust things that happen in our cultures, in our societies. It’s not a blanket statement for everything. But I think as we start to talk about tough conversations, maybe we build better muscles to engage each other, but —

Allison:

Sure. Yeah.

Ren:

Anyway, please continue the story, or wrap it up. It sounds like people are bringing this stuff into work more than they ever have.

Allison:

And to talk about something you just said, I don’t even think it’s limited to things we disagree upon. I think we can openly talk about the hurricane that recently hit and impacted parts of North Carolina that were unexpected. You and I don’t have to … That’s not up for debate, that’s actually happened.

So I think there are a lot more events that are happening, back-to-back-to-back. And I think you’re probably right. Maybe we are less skilled at having the … I think it’s complicated. We’re probably less skilled. Maybe we were never skilled at it. I have no idea. But I do think it’s not limited to what you said. It’s inclusive of that, but not limited to it.

And I also think another point you made, which is we’re inundated. I could log on to social media, or not even. I get alerts on my phone that I’m like, “Why did I … I didn’t sign up for that.” Right? It’s never good, and they’re never good. I don’t even know how to turn them off. So I think we’re just inundated now with harder things than perhaps we used to be.

Ren:

So it’s like the presence of the ever-present bad news, then that coupled with the nature of our humanity, this “I really want what I want and I want it now.” “I don’t want to be bothered.” We are creatures of convenience. I think that’s a living thing. We take paths of least resistance. Any living organism does that.

And I think it’s interesting that we start to ingrain these things and then maybe start to habitualize this. And then what we get inundated with also, then, tend to be like what is in our echo chamber. And maybe as we build skills to navigate that, that might be an interesting piece of ground to go through. But when I said echo chamber, you were ebbing and flowing or nodding your head back and forth.

Do you agree, disagree? Does that make you think something? What was going on for you there?

Allison:

I’m not sure yet. And I’m not trying to evade your question. I’m really not. I actually want to come back to something you said a few minutes ago.

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

Which was around ground rules. So can you just say a little bit more about that?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

And what they are, why it’s helpful, how a leader might do it.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean, I guess we started with this idea of, hey, is it a manager’s job to be like, “All right, we’re in a team meeting. It’s the day after a huge event in the United States. As an American, we even give you time to vote.” I said that word, everybody. Oh, no. And then we’re sitting in a room and things happen. Some of us are happy, some of us not, some of us don’t care. And the manager’s looking around and he’s like, “I don’t know, should I talk about this?”

And I guess that question there is, do we have ground rules as an organization that when things like this happen, do we pretend like it didn’t happen? Do we look at the office door and say, “Okay, I’m going to leave this part of my humanity at the front door, and then when I get in here it’s all going to be spreadsheets and numbers.”

So I guess some of the ground rules might be like, as an organization, have you ever had a conversation around when tough things happen? Like you said, too, what happens if half of your organization loses their home to the hurricane or something like that, some kind of horrific or terrible event happens. Do we pretend like it doesn’t for people? So whatever the event is, if something big happens, do we have the ground rule that’s set to say, “Hey, either we will give you space to talk about it, or we’ll talk about how we’ll talk about it, or we’ll take everything piece by piece.” So are there some kind of basic standard operating procedures about when something big in the world happens, are we the kind of organization that lets people talk about it? Or are we the kind of organization that says, “Nope, we don’t care. Talk off the clock.”

Does that make sense?

Allison:

Yeah, it makes sense. And I asked you to elaborate because that language, I think, might be new to some of our listeners. Of course, it’s not new to you and I, we probably do it in the classroom every single time. And I, as we’re talking, want to make sure and as we will, I know, but we’re giving some really practical tools. And I would say that is one of them, not to harp on it too long, but that is one of them: that you don’t need to set norms and ground rules after an event, but you can. You can do it anytime. You can do it anytime.

How do we want to behave as a team? And you can start there. And if you are the manager, you might have to get people going. You might have to start that list off so they even know what you mean. But one thing that we say at CCL a lot is … Well, 2 things I’ll mention. One is assume positive intent. And the other is take space, make space. So I think those are 2 practical things that you could add to your list to initiate. If you are going to have, if you do think you are the kind of leader and you are the kind of organization that will welcome these difficult conversations that Ren is talking about or that we are talking about, that’s a really great place to start to have effective conversations.

Ren:

Well, and I think something that you said there, a tool that people might want to learn more about, is one of my favorite learning agreements, I often call it when we’re working with groups or leaders is the take space, make space.

And so, in service of informing people of some of our lexicon, what would it look like for someone to take space and then make space in the confines of what we’re talking about today?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

So what does it mean, first of all, and then how would one do it in these circumstances?

Allison:

Just clarifying, how would one follow that normal take space, make space?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Okay, got it.

Ren:

Yeah. What is it? And then how would one follow the norm?

Allison:

I think at a very basic level … well, first it means understanding yourself.

I can only give myself as a good example. I’m an extrovert and I verbally process, and on calls, I’m not shy to speak up. I will speak up. I prefer to process verbally with people. I also am aware of how much I contribute, and how much that might not leave space for somebody else to. So I’m aware of that. I’m aware of how that looks in certain circles. On certain teams it might look a little bit different, but it’s that awareness first.

So for me, I know, I just know myself. I will pause. I will pause before I’m the first one to jump in and chime in. And I think on the opposite side … actually, I’ll be curious, Ren, where do you land on that? Are you someone who would normally chime in?

Ren:

Yeah, I think, as maybe what you’re exemplifying there might be an example of you making some space for someone.

Allison:

Yes. Thank you for clarifying that, yes. That would be an example of making space. Yes.

Ren:

Me too. Even though I’d probably fashion myself less of an extrovert, I am not afraid to have my ideas be heard. And so I’m more the person who’s like, “Okay, maybe I don’t have to be the first person to have my ideas heard.” And so yeah, I think I align with you maybe more on I could, but I try to make space. 

Allison:

Yes. So I think to answer your question, Ren and I described how that might look. It’s knowing yourself first, knowing yourself, and being observant of the people around you as well. Maybe you might notice that Sam rarely chimes in, right? If you were a manager, sometimes you can ask, too, like, “Hey, Sam, did you have anything else to add?” And Sam might very well say no to that, but at least you gave the space for it. So that’s what it means, is identifying what your tendencies are, making space for people as needed. And if you’re someone who’s a little bit hesitant to chime in, maybe you take a step forward and have some courage, and you do take up some space.

Ren:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Exactly. And I think that’s a really good tool. If you’re ever in a forum, let’s say one of the ground rules, the standard procedures of your organization is that there will be lunch and learns or listening sessions where you’ll be able to sit in a room with your colleagues.

And that’s a great place to take space, to make space, is what can you do to create more space for people? And then if you’re ever … I always joke with leaders in the room. If I ask a question and you’re feeling those butterflies in your stomach like, “I don’t know, should I talk? I’ve got the answer, but I don’t want to.” I’m like, “Yes, that means yes. You. You. You there.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Say what you have to say. And so yeah, I think that could be a really useful tool in some of these areas as we engage in this conversation. Is there any other way to take space, make space if you’re not already in a listening session, or you’re not already in that forum where we’re sitting in a circle talking to one another, other ways we can apply it? I don’t know. I’m kind of thinking about that myself.

Allison:

Yeah. Well, I think for the sake of what you and I are talking about for these more difficult conversations, I mean, it’s one thing to be in a meeting where somebody is asking about, “Should we put anything else on this PowerPoint,” a little bit easier to navigate type of things.

When it comes to those more difficult or challenging conversations … again, I think it will always start with self-awareness. And you have to want to understand the other person. And you, as that person, you also have to want to be understood.

Ren:

Oh, that’s interesting.

Allison:

And so I think in these more “difficult conversations,” what that can mean, and this can be very challenging, and I will speak for myself that it is for me, too. But what that can mean is listening to understand, removing judgment and the filter of your own values. And that I feel like we could talk about for 6 hours. That is very challenging.

Do I want to understand you? Am I in this conversation in which we very strongly disagree? Do I want to understand you? Because if I don’t, then why am I in this conversation? That’s what I would ask myself, right? I actually would want to answer that. Why am I entering this conversation, then? Because if I’m trying to be right, that’s not going to be an effective conversation, likely. But if I am seeking to understand you and I want to be understood, then we got something to talk about. But it’s hard. It’s hard.

Ren:

Yeah. Yeah. I think a couple of things. One is the awareness of yourself, kudos, but then not being triggered by the values conflict is, like, nirvana. That’s the goal of all the mystics, is how do I not be offended by the things that offend me? And so I think it is interesting. Yeah. Does that make you feel —

Allison:

No, no, no. Finish. Please finish.

Ren:

Yeah. And maybe that’s where we’re starting to get here, because as you’re talking, I’m going, okay, really what we’re talking about is emotional intelligence, which is having an awareness of your own emotional response to things and regulating it, having an awareness of others’ emotional response to thing, and helping to regulate the environment. And that’s sort of what you’re doing as a leader in these spaces is, if your company, fine, has ground rules that say we never talk about things outside of the work, we only talk about the office here. I mean, good luck. I don’t know if that’s even possible.

But if you’re in an organization where we may discuss these things, either informally or provide formal spaces for it, I think leaning into that creation of that space to liberate ourselves a little bit from “your perspective doesn’t invalidate my perspective.” And that’s not a strong muscle. Maybe that’s what I meant where we started, which is we don’t have the skill built. We don’t have the muscle built up for someone to say something, and them not even tear down my idea, but because I identify with my idea and their idea is different from mine, therefore different from my identity, I kinda like bristle. And then when it comes to our political future or the existence of a lot of that, if we want to have cordial conversations, it becomes even more challenging.

Allison:

It’s so difficult, right? And so I think maybe for a lot of people where the work is, or where the self-investigation, if you will … because yes, it is regulation, but I also think there’s another step to this that maybe we’ll start to dig into here, is that for a lot of people, values guide how they determine right from wrong. And, to your point, if we can expand our perspective and hold other people’s values to also be true, then it’s not as easy to just sit there and blame one another for everything. But it’s just hard, right? It’s hard.

It’s not as easy to say, like, if you and I disagree on whatever it is we disagree upon, if I can hold your values to be true and mine at the same time, that’s like this magical formula where then we can move forward. But it’s really, really hard. And again, I’m not talking about should the font be this or this. I’m talking about some of these life events that happen that dramatically impact people’s values systems and how they live. So again, if I can hold yours to be true at the same time as mine, then what? It opens up partnership. Because those types of conversations need to be a partnership, and it’s easier said than done, for sure.

Ren:

Well, and you joke about the text. So Ryan Gosling did a skit and then a return skit on SNL. And it was about this guy who was mad that Avatar, the movie Avatar, James Cameron’s films, just used Papyrus. That’s the font he used.

Allison:

The font? I didn’t even know that.

Ren:

The font is just Papyrus, yeah. Well, I don’t know if it is. I have not fact-checked it, but Ryan Gosling, the character’s mad, because this billion dollar movie, and he’s like this digital designer. What did he do? He just clicked through and picked Papyrus. And the follow-on was he thought, okay, there was some creation, but all he did for Avatar 2 was bolded it. But it speaks to … You said you weren’t referring to text. And I think what that skit tells me is that, for that guy, the font mattered to him. It mattered him as deeply as anything else may matter to him.

And so I think when we start to talk about values, we get to do, my favorite thing is really start to talk about the identity signs of it all. Not only do I recognize your values are true, mine are true, but none of it’s really true. All of it’s kind of whatever. Now I know what an amorphous, esoteric concept. But if we can say, if can liken our beliefs to that of our preference in fonts, then maybe, yeah, we can engage in partnership because really, what are they?

Now, I guess some people’s beliefs, especially when they might begin to infringe on another person’s beliefs, then we become into this real, real conflict. But again, when I start to think about that, I think about how everyone I talk to has that experience. No matter where they fall on any spectrum, often we agree that we feel conflict when someone’s values encroach on our values.

Allison:

A hundred percent.

Ren:

Yeah. That’s the bridge maybe.

Allison:

Sorry, I got excited.

Ren:

No, please, no. Get in there. I’m saying that might be the bridge as a leader. That is a truth we all share.

Allison:

It is.

Ren:

Can we move forward from there? I don’t know. Is that a start point or is that just an end point? Is that a nothing? I don’t know. What do you think?

Allison:

It’s all of the above. I don’t know.

Ren:

Yeah, exactly. Very true.

Allison:

If we think about your example of this person has a value, it sounds like, for fonts. To me, I’m being mindful because it sounds silly when I say it out loud, and this was an SNL skit, it sounds like. But if this were real, if this were real for you, and this is such a good example too, of the norm around assuming positive intent.

If you, Ren, were getting a little charged about font, and we’re working on a project together, I’m going to assume that it’s meaningful for you. And again, this is a little bit of a … I almost said a smaller example, but maybe it’s not, I don’t know. I’m going to assume that it’s important to you. Versus being like, “What is wrong with that guy? Why in the world does he care so deeply about font? That’s so stupid.” Getting out of my own judgment, right? I’m going to assume positive intent. I don’t know. Maybe you had a really bad day. I have no idea.

But the more you and I can be in partnership together, the better. And I promise most people … Again, it’s easier said than done. I’m not claiming that this is easy. But the more you can do that, the work’s going to be a lot less painful, I promise.

Ren:

Well, it’s like decoupling our experience.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Ren:

In that instance, if you were real bent out of shape about Sans Serif, you’re like, “I cannot have any weird shapes on my letters.” And I’m like, “No, we’re doing” —

Allison:

Comic Sans.

Ren:

Yeah, we’re doing Times New Roman. And you’re like, “No, I can’t!” Then I would say, “All right, dude, you do you.” And that’s because your judgment on fonts is no judgment on my humanity. And I guess that it might be oversimplifying it, but I think that’s the essence of what we’re talking about, is that you as my colleague, we might like every single thing. We might share all of the exact same preferences, beliefs, work preferences, you’re my work friend. And then we differ on this one major, major event.

And we both voted in 2 different directions. And we sit here in this space, and I think we recognize this truth that you and I are likely having a lot more similar experiences than any other kind of differing experiences. And I think those are the spaces for us to remind each other about how we might engage, how we might have useful conversation, and how in these management spaces we might remind each other that your experience, whether you’re elated or sad, is not my experience.

And we can have differing experiences, because we have differing experiences about every other thing that we have on our list. Sometimes we’re just really aligned on our preferences. Sometimes we’re not. But our experiences are our own. So you like Comic Sans? I’m not going to get bent out of shape out of that.

Allison:

No, I do not.

Ren:

Yeah, you do.

Allison:

Got to clarify that one.

Ren:

I know you do. It’s going to be on your headstone.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

That’s morbid. It’s too dark.

Allison:

We’ll have a good laugh. It’ll be fun.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, I think all of this, again, coming back to the question that you asked right at the beginning, which is what is a leader’s responsibility?

Because again, we’ve all been in meetings where 10 people just cannot get on the same page, whether it’s about the font size or the font color, whatever. It could be that simplified, and you’ve seen people get really charged about that. So leaders do navigate those types of conversations a lot. And so then you up the ante, right? You up the ante.

Whereas one of my friends was telling me that her son, who’s a teenager, refuses to eat any food that’s by a certain brand — I won’t mention it — because that brand contributes to climate change, and it’s just the hill that he will die on. So how do you navigate the conversations when they become that type of topic, right? It is different. It’s different. And some people get a little bit more elevated around certain topics. And so do you make space for it? Do you cut it off? A different girlfriend of mine would say, “I would set it.” She has said, “I would set a norm that we are not going to talk about certain topics.”

But you’ll still feel a certain vibe from your team. So what are your thoughts about that, Ren, of as a leader saying we’re not talking about 1, 2, and 3.

Ren:

I think about first date etiquette or cocktail party etiquette. What’s the number one rule on a first date?

Allison:

I don’t know.

Ren:

About what you should talk about. I bet you do. What do you say in polite —

Allison:

Oh, you probably don’t talk about politics, I’m sure, right?

Ren:

Yeah. You don’t talk about politics, you don’t talk about religion, you don’t talk about the economy. You don’t talk about your personal romantic histories. Right?

Allison:

Dude, I think … I’m sorry to call you, dude, I just really —

Ren:

Please.

Allison:

… made us casual here, but you and I have not, I don’t think, been in the dating world for a long … I think that’s changed.

Ren:

Is it?

Allison:

I think that dating etiquette has changed.

Ren:

Well, maybe, but I mean —

Allison:

I’m pretty sure.

Ren:

I was talking to a colleague of ours the other day and we were just talking about … Maybe in the workspace it’s one of those things where … for the most part, at least generationally … gosh, maybe, I don’t know if it’s new. If you’re a Gen Z or younger, what’s the younger one? There’s 2 of them. Gen Alpha?

Allison:

Alpha.

Ren:

Yeah, if you’re Alpha or Z out there, @ Allison and tell her what you think, if you guys talk about politics, religion, economics, or your romantic histories. Because I feel like that’s kind of etiquette where you don’t cross those bridges because … I don’t know, I guess you’re trying to present a facade or not trying to scare someone off.

And so I wonder, is that etiquette appropriate for the workspace, and are they the same environment? This is what I mean, though. We’re so unskilled at having these conversations. There used to be a time in America where we would revel. This used to be just … you and I could debate about football and we could debate around our senatorial race, and then we could high-5 each other and we can go get lunch. And it is like there’s certain things where, I don’t know, culturally maybe we’re so … And I think it goes back to what we’re identified with, where we’re so identified with these meta concepts that talking about “it” is talking about “me.”

And so I guess if I knew, maybe this goes back to your “it depends” and answer your friend’s question. If I knew I was in an organization where people were so closely identified with certain ideals, then maybe, yeah, I might suggest it to the people in the organization, if it were small enough. Do you all think there should be a way we operate, when something like this comes up, because of how impassioned we are about our beliefs, we decide to just table that.

Now, I mean, that’s like bottling up a hydrogen bottle or something, where it’s tense, and it might blow up, but so I could see some value in … if you knew everyone enough and everyone agreed that yeah, we can’t have a safe conversation, so we shouldn’t talk about it. Maybe that’s what I would say.

Allison:

Yeah, and I would add to that too, if … Again, it’s so gray. I think if it were me leading a meeting after a major event, and let’s say … I’m making this up, but let’s say there were 5 people in that meeting, or 10 even, and I noticed that person A, person B, and person C looked a little down, I would check in with them privately after. And it’s not because I think I can solve anything, because I probably cannot, but it is to offer some emotional awareness of, “Hey, am I reading you correctly? You seemed a little down, or something was off. Is there anything you want to talk about?” And that’s it, right?

And again, I do think it is a leader’s responsibility to offer that space. Always. I mean, not always, no, because sometimes that could get out of hand. Because, back to your earlier point, me, I have a responsibility to regulate myself. I have a responsibility to that. But sometimes things are overwhelming, and sometimes life is overwhelming. So I think it’s okay to check in with people and be like, “Hey, Ren, you seem a little off. Everything good? Do you want to talk about anything?” And you might very well be like, “No, I’m fine.” But you offer the space.

Ren:

Yeah. I think it’s so hard when issues can be so divisive, but if I care about you, and if I can put that forward and use that as my beacon, then I could say … like I would check in with you on any other time. And so I love that idea. I’m in the meeting with you. I noticed your behavior, and I also love this too, from a leadership standpoint, you as a manager or leader or team member be a keen observer of behaviors. We all recognize patterns. If someone’s a little bit down and you can see it, and you’re like, okay, hey, what I mean by down is you weren’t talking as much as you usually do. You’re usually cracking more jokes or you’re smiling more. You’re usually the first one in, even though you’re trying to work on making space, but this time you didn’t say a single thing, you might say, “Hey, are you feeling okay?”

And that’s all you would need to do. And maybe, too, as you think about these tough conversations, people, is how are you feeling? And for someone to just talk about how you’re feeling. Can I hear how you’re feeling, regardless about what it is you’re feeling? If you’re feeling loss, does it matter what your loss is experience, if I deem your loss valuable? It’s like, “Oh, you lost a dear pet. Oh, was it a cat or a dog?” It was a canary. It was like, “Oh, well, birds suck.” No, I’m not going to say that to your face. So it’s like … Yeah, am I thinking it? No, birds are great.

But it’s like, my job is to care that you care. And if we both care that we care … I think you said something important around partnership earlier. It’s that recognition that we’re … I don’t know, though. Sometimes it can be tough, but hopefully you could like … we’re going to be okay, because it’s going to be okay. Right?

Allison:

Well, I think 2 things. It is coming back to what I mentioned earlier, which is removing your own judgment. Which, whether you think it in your head or not, is a different story. But that is one of the best vehicles towards having a difficult conversation with somebody, is I’m going to remove my own judgment and speak for myself.

I will speak for myself, versus saying what you just said degrades all of humanity. I’ll speak for me and say what you just said was hurtful because of whatever.

Ren:

Because I felt degraded.

Allison:

Yeah. If that is, in essence, what you felt, right? So you’re right. We’re not very good at it. And I think one of the reasons, I think, we’re not good at it is because we’re used to being reactive. Another reason is that things are coming at us fast, like you mentioned the echo chamber earlier. So when you said that, and I was sort of wavering a little bit with a response to that, because I don’t know if I’m in an echo chamber. I probably am on social media. I probably am. But the news alerts that I get that are prompted by, I think my iPhone. I think. Actually, I don’t even know. Somebody can tell me how to turn those off.

My iPhone is the one who’s pushing stories to me. And I don’t know. Do you know? I don’t know. Is it pushing the stories that it hears me talk about, which is creepy? I don’t know. So I’m not really sure. But my point is we’re inundated with a lot of information. Most of it’s negative, and it’s overwhelming. And when we’re overwhelmed, for most people, if you’re not regulated, puts your nervous system into a blender, basically, and makes you more reactive. That is psychologically what can happen for a lot of people. So if you’re not aware of how you’re feeling … Let me rephrase that. It’s a good idea to be aware of how you’re feeling before you enter into any sort of dialogue that could be charged.

Ren:

And there’s something about dispelling the charge, and that’s something, language that … guys, it just haunts me as I think about personal relationships and the growth that I need to get into. It’s like, how do I maintain perspective with someone? Well, I typically find that I’m uncharged by their activity, like them reacting about a font size. I don’t care. And that’s what we mean by charge. If I’m closely connected to something, and someone does something that really, really amps me up or bothers me, it lifts my charge. And that’s the secret to, I think, serenity, is trying to reduce your charge, but that’s some of the values stuff we were talking about earlier, really hard to do.

So I think practically, there’s something about the sequential nature of these conversations. How do you get into a room that is a place where you can safely off gas, where no one will judge you for your lesser demons?

To then, with the mind’s eye of preparation for a more regulated conversation … where you and I, Allison, let’s say we clearly disagree on something and we’re mad about it. Great. I would never tell anyone to not be mad or happy or not experience their emotions. Let’s experience our emotions. Let’s not talk in this moment. Let’s experience them. Let’s do whatever catharsis we need to, to get rid of the lizard brain energy, and let the prefrontal cortex articulate how we’re feeling. Which is I think the root of … We talk about SBI and the feedback model. It removes judgment. It’s supposed to be … It’s nonjudgemental, which is why it’s so impactful.

And so I think you expel your charge in a safe environment. Then prepare yourself to have a difficult conversation. Or you know you’re going to disagree, or someone may say something that you’re not going to agree with, but then you’re preparing yourself for it, and you remind yourself maybe of what’s the goal here? And I think you said it earlier, maybe some of the goal is to seek understanding? I don’t know. You’ve got to ask yourself, or each other in a tough conversation, what are we trying to accomplish here? That’s probably a good start point, too.

Allison:

Definitely. And I want to underline knowing why you’re entering the conversation is so important, because a lot of times if we don’t get the response that we want, it can be because we didn’t know what we were trying to get out of the conversation in the first place. So we didn’t aim the conversation in that direction, or we didn’t ask for it.

Sometimes people just want to be heard and understood, and literally that’s it. Some people want to understand your perspective, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes people want an apology, sometimes … Whatever it may be, know why you’re entering into the conversation in the first place. It doesn’t mean that you wouldn’t change your mind or change the direction, because there are 2 people involved. But again, if I’m not willing to understand you, Ren, in a conflict, if I’m not willing, then we’re not in a partnership. We’re not.

Ren:

Yeah. Well then, not to do a doorknob here, with our hand on the door as we’re ready to leave saying something big. It’s like, well, does partnership matter? Generally, in humanity, and then I guess in the workspace, right? Because your premise only works if I care about partnering with you.

Allison:

Not necessarily. If you and I have to work together —

Ren:

No?

Allison:

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with you. I’m just adding to it. If you and I have to work together on every single client team, all of them — this is hypothetical — then I’m doing myself a disservice to not try to understand you. Because I will be miserable. Not you. I will.

Ren:

Right. What a great reminder.

Allison:

Again, there’s a spectrum, though. It depends. You have to be able to identify what’s most important to you. I don’t want to be miserable at work. I don’t. There are going to be people I don’t get along with. That’s just the reality. And you too, and to all of our listeners.

But it is to what extent does it matter to you, and to what extent do you want to understand that other person? Because we actually do have to partner to get work done. We actually do. I’m not saying partner in a personal relationship necessarily, but some people do make good friends at work, regardless. I think, again, it’s gray.

Ren:

Yeah, yeah. Some of what you were talking about reminds me of … we’re often just in our own experiences, maybe a little less worried about someone else’s … We think people are really concerned about us, and people are concerned about, I think, themselves … in the best way. I mean, there’s a lot going on for everyone.

And I think trying to make space, or that collaboration to recognize that there’s a lot going on for all of us, might be one of those things that we can do to start to build up the muscle. And maybe like you said, not only know where the conversation is going, but determine what success would look like here. How long can we go before someone makes a strict statement, before we don’t do open-ended questions? And maybe some formatting or some kind of alignment around process could be really useful.

Allison:

Definitely. I think there are … I’m looking at the time, because I feel like we could keep going easily for a while, but maybe we can do a part 2 or something. But I think there are a couple really key steps that leaders can take away. Or just humans at work, regardless of your position. Even though at CCL we say that leadership is not necessarily a given position.

So if you are at work and you’re leading any sort of team, or you’re leading a meeting, you’re leading a project, it’s a really good idea, regardless of what’s going on in the world, it’s a really good idea to set norms on how you’re going to work together. That’s a really good idea.

I would say another key step is for you as an individual to identify when you are about to be dysregulated, and perhaps wait on having a conversation if you are feeling “dysregulated.” I’m going to name one more, and then I’ll see if you have anything to add, Ren.

Another thing that we talked about was what we would call, at CCL, listening to understand, which is a layer deeper than active listening. Listening to understand really means removing my own judgment in service of truly understanding your perspective, not listening to prove my own values or prove my own point. It truly is listening to understand you, and what you value, and what you’re feeling and experiencing. Anything else you might add for people to take away?

Ren:

I think I’ll just double click on that activity. So part of the listening understand we do is identifying not only the facts of the issue, but what are the values? What is someone feeling? And so maybe when you engage in something, especially something you know you disagree with, can you seek some understanding? Then actively work to identify what they’re feeling and their values that they might be having. And then, step 2, map those to your own feelings and values.

And I would bet, more often than not in most conflict situations, a lot of quick work could lead you to the fact that, wow, we are mirroring each other right now. Our values might be different, but our feelings are nearly at the same space, and it’s because of what, right? Then we get to identify what the “because of what” is, and start to remind ourselves of all the things that we have in common. At least, in the very least, we have in common the mechanism upon which we’re being wounded.

And so I think we can humanize each other once we realize that we’re value-based people, and a lot of us share almost a lot of the same values, if not in word, in sentiment.

Allison:

I like what you said there about humanizing one another, and maybe I can wrap us up after that, because I kind of want to keep going, but I won’t.

Ren:

Yeah, no, for sure.

Allison:

I like what you said about humanizing, because I think what can happen oftentimes is that we cut people off because we don’t want to have —

Ren:

Wait, what? I’m just kidding.

Allison:

I mean, from being in any sort of relationship, not even just in dialogue. It’s like, no, this is over. This is done. I’m not going to talk to you about this. So there’s a time and a place to do that, too. I know someone will argue me on that, but for the most part, we get uncomfortable instead, and then we exit the conversation and hightail it out of there, and that’s that.

And then we assign meaning or judgment to the other person. While Ren and I had this conversation, it was icky, I got out of it, and Ren now is … whatever I decide that he is. Ren is a jerk. Ren is this, Ren is that, when it was one conversation. And Ren, I like what you said about humanizing other people as well, and humanizing the conversation and remembering that we are 2 human beings versus something to unload all of our blame onto.

And so perhaps we can leave it at that for now and, I don’t know, maybe do a part 2. I can see you thinking.

Ren:

Yeah, I like that. No, that’s a good one. That’s good. Good mic drop. Let’s not find people to shovel our blame onto, and I think the word of the day might be partnership. Tough conversations are a little bit easier in partnership, so thanks for partnering, Allison.

Allison:

Indeed. Yes, thanks. Thanks, Ren. As always a great conversation. And if you are listening, please find us on LinkedIn. We’re also on Instagram. Let us know what thought of this conversation. Let us know what you think. Let us know what you want us to talk about next.

And to all of our listeners, you can find all of our CCL podcasts and show notes on CCL.org, and to our CCL team who works tirelessly behind the scenes to get our podcasts up and running, we thank you and appreciate you. And Ren, I’ll look forward to chatting next time.

Ren:

Absolutely. Thanks, Allison. Thank you, everybody. See you next time.

Find Allison on TikTok.

Interview Transcript

Ren:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership’s happening, and what’s happening with leadership.

Pew, pew, pew, pew. It’s still manager madness, Allison. Although the championship is over, we’ve got our final winner, but we’re still slogging through where we’re headed. And one by one we’re discussing public figures, some fictional, some real, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

Welcome back to the Rosebud Motel, everyone, in Schitt’s Creek. Yes, we are talking about Schitt’s Creek and the Roses. Now, it took me a while to get into the show, but when I did, we really couldn’t stop watching it. It’s so heartwarming, so funny, so unique. So Allison and I are going to give it a shot at unpacking the quirks and strategies and surprising wisdom behind the leadership styles of so many of these beloved characters, not only through the lenses of the Roses — Johnny, Moira, David, and Alexis — but also some of those other amazing characters in the Creek, looking at their unique approaches to leadership, and what we might learn about some of those weird and awesome people.

Now, Johnny Rose, whether he’s the former video store tycoon or a small town entrepreneur, his journey from riches to rags reveals a steadfast leader who values integrity and resilience and family, I think. Or Moira, with her eccentric matriarchy and a penchant for wigs and the flair for the dramatic, her style might just look like theatrics and no substance, but really Moira is a leader of heart, of expectation, of high standards, I think. Even her ability to rally the town for the musical and her stint on the town council shows how her leadership can inspire through vision and action.

And then we’ve got the awesome kids, David, with his eye for detail and his unwavering standards, maybe even exemplifying some transformational leadership. And don’t forget a little bit Alexis, and her quirky “entrepreneurialness” and her almost driven target on the goal, and maybe not being distracted, for ill or for better and anything else. But it’s not just the Roses, characters like Stevie Budd, characters like Jocelyn and Roland and Ronnie. We’re going to talk about a lot of them and explore some of that wealth of leadership wisdom.

So welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what do you think of roadside motels? And when’s the last time you stayed at a Motel 6?

Allison:

Well, I stayed at a roadside … Let me restart that, because I kind of stayed at a roadside motel when I was in my 20s. I can’t remember how old I was, but I was driving from Colorado to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for my sister’s wedding, by myself with my dog in tow. And no plan, really. I just figured I’d drive until I got tired, which in retrospect, looking back, that was not the smartest decision.

I found a hotel, once I got sleepy, pulled off to the gas station first where somebody approached my car. It was 1:00 in the morning. It was not a super safe feeling. And I stayed at a roadside motel. And I say that I kind of did because I went into the room and just had that sinking gut feeling of, “This doesn’t feel right.” And so I slept in my car, and the next morning got up and used the shower and left.

Ren:

Oh, wow, I don’t know if the Roses … I don’t know if Johnny would be thrilled that that would be your experience of the Rosebud Motel.

Allison:

No, I don’t think so. What about you, when’s the last time you stayed at a roadside motel?

Ren:

Man, I don’t know if I’ve ever stayed at a roadside motel. Especially, I can’t even, recently, I can’t think of it. There might be something of Moira in me, or maybe the general Roses, where it’s like now that I’ve earned my way and been able to see and access some finer things, maybe I um, I’m not like, “Let me stay at an Econo Lodge.” I think maybe I stayed at a Red Roof Inn, yes, probably, or a Best Western in my early 20s.

But a Best Western’s like a weird motel, hotel vibe, especially where we went, which was in Canada, and they have an amusement park area. Really fitting, because the show was filmed in Canada. So I think that’s super interesting. And that’s where the motel is, in Toronto or Ontario. But anyway, that’s probably my answer. But despite our trips to and from hotels or motels, maybe when you think about the Rosebud Motel, what would you be excited about if you had to work there, and what might you be worried about?

Allison:

Well, it depends at what point I’m working there, who’s in charge, has Mr. Rose taken over yet?

Ren:

Well, yes. Yes, he has. He, and well, he’s in the midst of partnering with Stevie, so it’s not like the “well-ironed machine” that it turns into in Season 6. Think like Season 2.

Allison:

Okay. Oh, gosh. I think I would be excited because there’s enthusiasm. There’s enthusiasm, well, with Johnny. I don’t know about Stevie being enthusiastic; however, her historical knowledge of not only the motel but the area, partnered with Johnny’s business savviness and enthusiasm, and maybe even Alexis’s ability to brand, it’s almost like it has a startup vibe to it. That would be fun.

Concerns, I mean, “Do we have it in us to turn this place around?” If you’ll remember, it’s barely operable, right? Some of the showers don’t work. There’s leaks. You can hear through the walls. They don’t have enough towels half the time. The location maybe is not ideal for traffic that you might need for a motel to thrive. What about you, what’d make you excited?

Ren:

Yeah, that’s interesting. I like Johnny, I find him really interesting. I think it’d be funny to watch he and Stevie interact. And I think it’d be funny to have Stevie as my boss, too, because she seems pretty chill. And even though I know she stepped more into her role as leader, I think being around those 2 and then just some of the characters … I mean front row seats to the mayor on the regular.

So at least if you work there, you know you’re in the political know-how of Schitt’s Creek. I’d probably be worried that … man, yeah, I like working for real buttoned-up organizations, and things where it’s tight and it’s interesting, and where I don’t have to be a plumber and also something else.

And so, I probably wouldn’t be super thrilled at having many, many job duties outside of my job description, but maybe that’s some of what we can talk about in the context of the work and things like that. But before we go into the Roses though, I’d love to talk more around some of the other weird characters in that world. And so, when you think about people outside of the core family, what’s one of the first people that pops up for you?

Allison:

Oh, either Jocelyn or Roland. I think Jocelyn, I suppose, is … I mean she eventually becomes more of a primary character, but she’s not in the family, and there’s something very sweet and wholesome about her, but also very direct. And I like how she … to me she models that you can be kind and direct at the same time. I don’t know if you will remember, there’s an episode … and I don’t remember why, I think Moira wanted to get a haircut or something like that. So Jocelyn took her to her hairstylist who gave her the same exact haircut as Jocelyn, and it was so funny.

And I pulled out a quote from Jocelyn because I wanted to get it right. And what she says is, “I know you hate your hair, Moira, almost as much as you hate this town, but there’s a possibility you could be here a really long time. And if I could offer you something, the people here are just trying to help you, and there’ll be days when your wigs need conditioning, or you’ll need a ‘fashiony’ blouse because you shrank it in the dryer and you’ll have to go to Janine’s, or you’ll get a shirt at the Blouse Barn, just like the rest of us. And I would hate for that day to catch you by surprise.” So there’s something very kind about how she’s just very direct and helpful at the same time.

Ren:

Yeah, I think that’s something really interesting about Jocelyn, and maybe it’s the way that they wrote her, at least that she was able to manage her … like if we’re taking her as a real person, she was able to manage her emotions in a way where she could be totally honest and totally kind, I think. It’s like we talk about in the classroom, you don’t have to just be mean if you want to be honest.

And in order to be nice, you don’t have to lie to people. And I think, for a lot of the time, especially in the beginning of the show, I was kind of reading Jocelyn as someone who’s, like the Roses are always throwing barbs at them. Like the Schitts and Roland and Jocelyn, like when they go over to their house for the first time or the second time or whenever they’re there, they’re trying to be high context funny things.

And I think Jocelyn’s super smart, but she picks up on it. But maybe she’s so grounded in her, like what she’s there to do, which is love her family, love her community, that she’s not bothered by it. But then able to be honest without … like she wasn’t yelling at Moira, she was just kind of saying, “Hey, heads up, dude, a word for the wise, manage yourself a little bit better.” So yeah, something really about her that I think grows on me. She’s really charming and wise, I think.

Allison:

Yeah, I agree, she is wise. And I’m sure you’ve heard leaders in our worlds say this, if not our clients, but elsewhere, leaders around the globe, especially in the US, will say something like, “Well, I tell it like it is, and I’m very direct.” And a lot of times that’s judgment, it turns into judgmental comments, and that’s not necessarily “telling it like it is.” I would prefer Jocelyn’s style, like, “You are here,” to your point, she is very grounded and she says it in the kindest way, “You’re here, you’re going to be here. People are trying to help you, so let them,” is essentially what she’s saying. So I appreciate that level of candor, groundedness, and honesty and support. It’s very supportive, too.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think that’s something about her character, and I love what you’re citing, because so often I think there’s this tension between being accepted as who you are, or people saying, “Take it or leave it.” And then using that as an excuse for being a total a-hole. And I think a lot of leaders do that, like, “Oh, I’m not conflict averse” or, “I’m just a rough personality; that’s just the way it is.” And I think there’s probably a polarity that needs to be managed, like a both/and: yeah, you’re allowed to be a hard-ass, but also you can’t just be that thing because sooner or later that well runs dry.

And so, I like that kind of space where the both/and. I think Jocelyn really speaks to that well, like just a lot of care and a recognition of, “Maybe certain things aren’t perfect, but we’re here together. We’re here working towards something.” The strong and connected teams. I think she might be the best example of the kind of character that can keep a team together and help them ride through the interesting waves of high-character people.

Allison:

And I agree with you, and earlier you’d mentioned the possibility of having Stevie as your boss might be okay with you. So say more about that.

Ren:

Well I find Stevie’s absolutely one of my favorite characters, and I think especially, too, in her exchanges with David early in their relationship. Maybe her communication style, for instance, may be less forward than Jocelyn, probably to do with less wisdom or exchanges with people. But the conversation about the wine after David and her first get together, and she’s like, “I thought you like white wine.” He goes, “Oh, yeah, sometimes, or I’ll do red or maybe even a rosé.” And I think it’s funny that Stevie and I would probably be able to say a lot with not a lot of words.

Allison:

Yes, and I appreciate … I want to get back to what you said about the wine in a second, but what you said about Stevie is, to me, I find her to be so hilarious, and she’s very dry. I know not a lot of people relate to that type of humor, but she is very, very dry. And there’s something for me around, I think one of my values too is that there’s joy and fun in the work that I do. I mean, we spend a lot of time at work, and I think it would be fun to work with her.

And she just has the best one-liners. And she says to David at one point, “What you lack in most things, you make up for in unsubstantiated confidence.” Which is just, she’s got the best one-liners. And their back-and-forth is so comical, and it works. And I understand that not everybody relates to that type of humor, and some people find it to be mean, but I think she’s very funny.

Ren:

Well, and I think she’s an interesting example of what we were just talking about, about that both/and of maintaining who you are and also growing. I think Stevie maybe has one of the largest arcs in the show. And it’s really interesting to see her start to step into herself. And I know we’re going to talk about Johnny later, but something about his leadership style is that he saw something inside of Stevie that Stevie didn’t. And by the end of the show, Stevie saw more in her herself than she ever could have imagined.

And sometimes I think that’s a leader’s job is, you don’t have to be mean to people, but you could recognize something inside of them and let that create an environment for that to grow. And so I think Stevie’s dry and irreverent, and I mean if you can’t take it, she could maybe look and sound a little bit mean, but then I think she really changed. I think she changed in recognition of her own skills and ability. I think she changed in maybe still being funny, but not always at the expense of others.

Allison:

Yes. Yes, agreed. And there are some really tender moments with her where she, at the start, might seem cold or aloof, or maybe detached even. And there’s some moments where they just pan to her, and you can see how proud she is of the motel and of the work that she’s done. And maybe that happens a little later in the series, but you are right, I think there is a serious growth with her, where at the beginning she’s a little bit in over her head, and she doesn’t really care that much. And then I believe it’s maybe her aunt who dies, or her great aunt, and gives her the motel. I don’t know if you remember that. And she’s feeling incredibly overwhelmed.

And then the family sort of steps in to help her. And when they have the new sign on the motel, I don’t know if you remember that. They put the sign up and they surprise her, and she doesn’t really say much, or she might’ve made a snide comment, I can’t remember, a Stevie comment. But then they pan back to her, and she’s standing there by herself, and she’s a little teary-eyed and it’s very sentimental. And there’s a lot of pride. You feel a lot of pride in what she’s doing as really a business owner.

Ren:

Yeah, I reflect on her fondly. And I think there’s something about those characters that they give the Schitt’s Creek vibe to, or like, “Hey, Roses, there’s other ways to look, and maybe this place, this little corner of the world is really a microcosm of the world.” And I think they did such a good job of that. And there’s something so, too, like normal and engaging about these human experiences, but not overly dramatic. And as you were talking about Stevie, sometimes too, I feel like she doesn’t play the Jim Halpert role for us, where at some point she can kind of be our point of view, just a normal person in a small town who sees these people as kind of like, “I’m not really invested in making you all feel worse than you already do,” but kind of looks past the camera and thinks, “Is anyone else seeing this?”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And so there’s something around her kind of self-awareness I think, too, that leads to her being an effective leader. Because I think part of her, you allude to, when it’s formal that the hotel’s going to be hers, and before she starts to partner with Johnny, I think there’s that fear of, “Can I do this?” And sometimes it’s almost like the awareness of what we don’t know is a sign of wisdom. And luckily for her, she was able to push past her fear. I know it can be paralyzing for some. But yeah, Stevie’s one of my favorites.

Allison:

Yeah, me too. And I want to come back to something you said a moment ago, which was the scene where they’re shopping for wine and David says, “I like the wine and not the label.” We are recording during Pride month. So happy Pride. I don’t know if this will come out this month, we’ll see. And it’s a reminder that you can support and celebrate the queer community in other months as well.

However, the show does a really fantastic job of showing how the queer community can exist without sensationalizing it. There is no homophobia in that show at all. Digging a little bit further, one of the best examples is the one that you brought up where David said he likes the wine and not the label. And that one-liner is really indicative of the inclusion of people from all walks of life in the show, including the kinds of folks that live in that town specifically, too.

So when David and Patrick start their relationship, that show models so beautifully a relationship between 2 people who really care about each other and love each other, without focusing on the label, and without sensationalizing it so much to the point where there’s violence and trauma, and it just in some ways shows what’s possible. And I think that’s something that’s very meaningful as well.

Ren:

Yeah, there was always … when I was watching the show too, and I think being conditioned by modern media and the tension, because being I think storytellers and professionals in this space, too, I think we start to identify arcs and we’re like, “Okay, this is going to be a conflict area. You’ve got to write a story to create conflict.” And I was always kind of dreading the inevitable gay conflict in the show, and I was so grateful that it was just normal people stuff still.

I mean, my favorite part … and I think it liberated them a lot. I love when they’re getting married and Patrick hires the masseuse for David, and they’re getting back together, he’s like, “Man, that was a really great massage, and I’ve never had one of those before. And that’s really wonderful.” I think, if you know you know. And Patrick’s like, “I don’t understand.” And he goes, “Well, what do you mean?” And then he tried to replay his mind back through it. But it was interesting, that wasn’t a derailer and it wasn’t one of those things, like I think in other spaces, where they were trying to lean into hyper-sensationalism.

Allison:

That is it.

Ren:

It just seemed like 2 people. And maybe, again, something that I love about this show, is 2 people who love each other, who accept each other and are so accepting of themselves that the only thing that they can really bemoan about that is just kind of the weird miscommunication, but no challenge on their partnership or their care for each other or anything like that. Yeah, they’re a fun combo.

Allison:

Yeah. And so many hilarious moments between them, and probably between everybody, that we could talk about. Another funny part, again, just how different the 2 of them are, Patrick and David, something that comes to mind where, it’s probably in the last season, where Patrick goes to get a spray tan and uses David’s punch card or whatever it is. And he comes back and he’s bright orange.

I don’t know if you remember that, but it’s just so funny how they navigate each other. It’s hilarious. And there’s even a really nice moment, I think, that can speak to people who are in the process of identifying their sexuality, where Patrick … I think there’s, and I’m not remembering what season it is, but they have their business and there’s a customer who comes in who it appears might be sort of hitting on Patrick.

And David said, “Why don’t you go out with him and just see. I know this is your first relationship with another man.” I’m paraphrasing. And it’s just a really nice, tender, accepting moment. And of course he ends up not going out with the guy, and it’s all romance and lovely between David and Patrick. But it’s just a nice reminder of things not being black and white I suppose.

Ren:

Yeah. And if you’re foreign to that culture, I could imagine someone standing on the periphery and be like, “Wait a minute, why would he suggest that he do that?” And I just think from an inclusive standpoint, if you’re listening, and you observe this kind of experience from the periphery, or you start to see someone on a show like this, or maybe you even witness a colleague or you hear … I think there’s space for, if you’ve got the emotional cachet in a relationship, to be like, “Hey, help me understand.” Because I don’t know if I would say to my wife, “Hey, go sleep with that other dude, and then we’ll just feel it out and then you can come back in.” And again, it’s just like this acceptance.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

And that’s so interesting, and if any of you are paying attention, it’s a big theme for me in this chapter of my life. But it’s really interesting. I think something about Patrick and his style and work, too, is that supportive, collaborative, accepting … like, just as he was getting to know David, and they’re getting the business license, and his availability and his helpfulness, it just seemed like something about “the best ability is availability,” an old sports adage. And I think Patrick’s kind of steady, he’s always there. And sometimes as a leader you can be steady, you can always be there, and it can make a difference.

Allison:

Yes, absolutely. Well, let’s jump people dramatically. What’s your take on Roland?

Ren:

On Roland. Yeah, right, talk about some male energies and their difference. Roland. I think, too, there’s something about him and Jocelyn where they both, they had to write them in a certain way where they were sort of obtuse.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

But I’d say Roland’s unconventional existence … man, I guess I’m just going to hit on this theme … maybe leaders, what I’m recognizing in Schitt’s Creek is that Roland was so okay with himself, that he was just always himself. And again, someone who was driven by family and community. He loved his town, and what the town stood for, regardless of what anyone else thought about it or badmouthed it, that was his town with his people. And there’s something about that recognition and acceptance of what’s yours, and how he is himself, that I think I’m spinning around. Yeah, he’s bumbling, but I like that about him.

Allison:

Yeah, you always know what’s on his mind.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

You always know he’s going to be very honest and sometimes very blunt. You’ll probably always know where you stand with him, and he shows that frequently in the show. And to your earlier point, there’s something about him and Jocelyn … and of course he’s the mayor, so there’s something about him and Jocelyn together that understand the political landscape of the community and how things work.

And there’s so many examples of Johnny wanting to do something and Roland sort of laughs at him, or maybe says something crass, and it’s just like, “That’s just not how it works here. It’s not how it works.” But perhaps the job, the only job that he takes seriously, it is when he becomes a father. So he tries to help out at the motel, and he’s not helpful at all. And then when he becomes a father, we sort of see an arc with him, too, where he really grows into that role and takes it very seriously.

Ren:

Well, yeah … I’m glad you brought that up because I forgot that he has an arc too, because remember, Mutt is his other son. And so it’s like his first relationship or his first child. And then you think about the things that, “I want to do different this time around.” And it’s interesting around you as leader or you as listener or you as parent or partner out there, anyone, this idea of like, “Well, this time around it’s going to be different.”

And I think there’s something interesting about letting yourself grow and trying new things, but I know that expectation and comparison are the mother and father of all pain. And so as you look backward and forward in your life, maybe comparing yourself is not necessarily the best, but grounding yourself in who you want to be and how you want to show up. I think Roland is a great example of that, who you want to be and how you want to show up.

And I think you just mentioned too, kind of like that Michael Scott moment where he may not be the most perfect person, but he knows his people and he knows his town, and he’s like, “Hey, Johnny, you can’t do that here because it’s not going to work. Trust me. Follow my lead.” And Johnny’s like, “I used to be a billionaire, a millionaire. What do you mean follow your lead?” So it’s really interesting, that awareness.

Allison:

Right. And it’s a perfect translation to the workplace, that arc, because I tell people a lot that, especially when you’re starting a new role or a new job in a new company, you need to understand the landscape and how the work gets done first. Yes, your skillsets are important, of course, and how the work gets done is perhaps the most important thing.

But I think a lot of the characters in the show, predominantly the Rose family, model having to make mistakes or failures that were not anticipated, and how to get back up from them. So I think the Rose family as a family is a good example of that. And then individually they all have their own routes to take in terms of starting over from scratch.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think before maybe we dive fully on the Roses, I want to give Ronnie a shout-out.

Allison:

Ronnie, yes.

Ren:

I think her character is another really interesting idea of this kind of straightforward existence. And Ronnie maybe is another aspect of us, like a normal person in a small town looking at all of this and just being like, “Okay, can we just be real pragmatic about everything?” And I think there’s something that, on the continuum, all the kind of leadership out there, the people who are really comfortable with change, and people who really want to maintain the way it used to be, and then this sort of Ronnie who’s tapped into doing what needs to work, when it needs to work. And so she cuts through the drama, I think, cuts through the politics, and is another example of a grounded person. So I just wanted to give a shout-out to Ronnie.

Allison:

Yes, shout out to Ronnie, and an apology, Mutt. I’m sorry to you, Mutt, I forgot that you were the son of Jocelyn and Roland. But back to Ronnie. You’re right, she is very pragmatic, especially when it, I mean when it comes to all things, when it comes to the community of Schitt’s Creek, and when it comes to the choir that they put together and how they assign roles. I remember an episode where Moira really wants a solo, I think, and she’s trying to just rely on her reputation of being in the acting world. And it’s Ronnie who says a version of, “You have to audition like the rest of us.” There’s some sort of fairness and practicality about her that she brings to the community as well.

Ren:

Yeah. [singing] Oh, Danny Boy ..

Allison:

Yes. This is now the second episode where we’ve got you singing. This is great.

Ren:

Yeah, well, I mean, it’s going to happen. I think it’s going to happen. Yeah, I just love that they continue to put themselves into these interesting positions. And maybe there’s so many things about the Roses that I find charming. And maybe it’s fitting to start with Moira, because I don’t know if she has as … she might have the most limited arc in the show, I think, but maybe she was the most self-aware, and so she had less distance to travel. I don’t know, what do you think?

Allison:

Well, I think there was some growth with her, because she was on a soap opera. That was her claim to fame, where she was on a popular soap opera. And then she gets to Schitt’s Creek and nobody knows who she is, and eventually she has to start back from square one, where she’s in a movie called the, what is it called? “The Crows Have Eyes,” I think, or something.

Ren:

Yeah, “The Crows Have Eyes III,” it’s the third one.

Allison:

And the location is somewhere in the middle of nowhere. She basically stays in a trailer, where she’s had been used to a very different lifestyle. So there is a sort of starting over from scratch for her that happens, in just a much different way. The one thing that we can appreciate about her is that she stays very true to her brand. So if we talk about personal branding, she’s got that down. I mean, they sort of all do, if you think about it, but she really does. She really, really does. And while she is sort of opposed to working in the motel, she does get a couple of wake-up calls where she has to help out. I don’t know if you’ll remember when she has to work at the front desk and there’s an older gentleman who comes in, and she thinks that she kills him. It’s just the whole … do you remember that episode?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So, I think she has some wake-up calls that are maybe a little bit more subtle, because she stays the path of the acting realm but has to learn how to start over again and rebuild her reputation.

Ren:

Yeah, I think you say something that I resonate with, is the idea that she never lost sight of her brand. And so, of all of the things, now granted the Schitts were able to — or the Roses, I keep calling them Schitts — the Roses were able to keep all of their clothing, which is their only bastion of their wealth. But Moira was committed, wigs and clothes and all. She never, never, never ended up buying a blouse from the Blouse Barn. She always had her thing. And so I think Moira might be a good example, for me, of someone who recognizes perpetual growth.

I think Moira, we learn about her that she was … before all the money came and they really lost sight of who they were, and she’s tried to be motherly, and you could see that growing with her kids. And David, I think in her relationship with David a little bit better, but … and then when she goes to the graduation with the Jazzagals for Alexis. And I can see her maybe, she reminds me of a lot of the CEOs that I get to meet and work with, where they’re at the tippy top of the mountain and they kind of lost sight of how long and how far and how challenging the path was. But when they get up there, they remember that people really matter to them.

And I think there’s moments where we see Moira step into a place, like even on that movie, she kind of helps the director who was feeling bummed out that he’s on some third-rate movie, and she kind of helps him make the best of it. And the movie does okay, for whatever, like a Sharknado-type movie that it is. So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if I see as much of her starting over as much as maybe she’s crystallizing the things that maybe she lost sight of, which really matters for her, which I think is her acting, and then Johnny.

Allison:

Right. And to some extent her relationship with her kids. There’s one episode where Alexis is like, “What’s my middle name? You don’t know my middle name.” And it’s comical. And then there’s another episode that always makes me think about feedback, and reiterating your point where I think it’s Jocelyn who gives her the feedback that she’s not approachable. And so she goes to David and she says it sort of like this, and it’s hard for her to get out.

She says, “I am approachable.” And David is like, “Is that a question? That sounds like a statement.” And they have sort of a nice, sarcastic-ish, because David is David, but a nice moment where she realizes how she’s coming off, and she hadn’t known that previously. So that’s what I mean where I think it’s a little bit more subtle for her is understanding how she appears to people and how people experience her, which can be difficult for a lot of people.

Ren:

Yeah, and that brings up for me, it just reminds me, these characters I think, and maybe I don’t know if the writers were trying to do this and all of a sudden it’s becoming clear for me, but she really struck the balance of recognizing like, “This is who I want to be, and sure, I might change some of it, but I’m still going to put an inflection in my voice. I’m still going to wear my wigs. I’m still going to wear this.” And so it’s like she really honored the polarities of, “This is who I am, but I don’t have to be an asshole the whole time.”

Allison:

Exactly.

Ren:

And that’s why they restarted at that place. And I think she’s kind of cool. Some of her edges softened, and I think that made some of her other parts of her shine brighter.

Allison:

And there’s one part, too, where she goes to a conference with Roland, and I’m not remembering what the conference is. Do you remember this episode? And she’s sort of like, people actually want to talk to her again, and she’s sort of the life of the party a bit. And I think that’s a reminder for her of that she can belong in other spaces where she’s felt so out of place.

Ren:

Yeah, I was wondering if it wasn’t at the small business owner award ceremony, because the motel was getting an award, but she was present or something, stepping in. I don’t know.

Allison:

I don’t remember, something like that. Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. I do remember a little bit Alexis, so.

Allison:

Yes. How could you forget?

Ren:

That is such a good bit. And even that actor’s story to pull ourselves out of the arc, talk about persistence, and talk about that Hollywood tale. I mean, I guess her house burned down, no money in her bank account. She was like, “This acting thing is not working. I’ve been doing it for years. It’s not happening, and I’m about to quit.” And then it’s that last moment where she gets this job and then, I mean, granted, I haven’t seen her do a lot more after this, but hey, if you strike gold with Schitt’s Creek, then so be it. So I think before we talk about Alexis, just that actor’s story is really interesting, a reminder to all of you that persistence pays. And maybe too, being okay with who you are and what you’re doing and how far you’ve come, like reveling in the journey, maybe that can help you just last enough to get your big break.

Allison:

And she’s turned into a pop culture icon from that show, talk about one-liners. And I saw an interview with her, and it may have been on Jimmy Fallon, I think, where he says to her, “Everybody knows,” and there’s so many memes and so many tweets, it’s all over pop culture of her saying, “Ew, David.” And she actually only says that in the show, I think she says it 2 times, but she always uses David’s name in a way that has that same inflection.

And so she’s forever, she is forever a pop culture icon in that respect, again, because of one-liners. And you’re right, sort of her as a human being comes full circle to who she is as a character, too, because she goes back to high school and finishes her GED and then goes to college, and then auditions for the show in the most comical way. So all of that sort of comes full circle, where they all just do this great job of building from scratch again, and reinventing yourself, and also staying who you are at the same time.

Ren:

Well, yeah, when I think maybe Alexis too, she’s one of those, I track her as one of the higher arcs, because part of her character I think was a lack of awareness of who she was. I think she was the money, she was the pretty girl being swept away on trips, even though sometimes it’s like she’s being kidnapped. But that’s how unaware she was, she would just joke about like, “Yeah, I feel like I was kidnapped by a Saudi prince or something.”

And then it’s less that she, for me, I think it’s less she was rebuilding and more like she was building. She was starting to create a foundation, and maybe that high school arc for her, and then doing that, and then getting the job. And then even being with Ted, to some extent, was sort of her doing all of that work that maybe a normal person might do in their teens and 20s. But she was so insulated from the world that she had to just not keep growing up, but just begin growing up.

Allison:

And her relationships, you see how she starts to value relationships in a different way, too. There’s a time where she bumps into some of her old friends, and I don’t remember if they’re passing through, I can’t remember what that is. And sort of her old life resurfaces, where one of the women who maybe is a business owner, I think, now I’m not remembering if it’s a branding agency or something like that, but one of the women says to her, confidentially or off to the side, “We have a job for you, and this other woman, we can’t stand her.” But they’re really nice to her at the same time. She starts to investigate, and you can see it on her face, she’s being very thoughtful about her relationships, and that’s a moment for her where she decides to take another path, and you see her start to value her relationship with, my goodness, I’m forgetting her name. Who’s the server at the restaurant that she becomes friends with? Twyla.

Ren:

Twyla.

Allison:

Twyla. Yes. And she takes Twyla out to the bars, and she starts to value her relationships in a much different way. And I think that’s a moment for her to, you’re right, consider what’s important and what shifts she needs to make or wants to make.

Ren:

Yeah. One big issue that I had with the whole Alexis thing was the storyline with Ted. I’m convinced that that guy pissed someone off. Because the way they wrote him out of the show, it just seemed like it didn’t make any sense to me.

Allison:

Oh, it made so much sense to me. But you keep going.

Ren:

No. All right, well, no, tell me what?

Allison:

Finish your sentence though, I didn’t mean —

Ren:

Were they just growing in that much of a different way? Because it seemed like they didn’t really need to break up. I know they broke up once, but then they broke up again, and I just don’t know why. But tell me more. You said it makes sense to you, I want to know.

Allison:

Well, so you had 2 people who were really coming into their own opportunities. And for Alexis … Ted was, to me, it seemed, very grounded in who he is and where he’s going with his career. And Alexis never really got the chance to be an independent human because, I mean it sounds like I’m feeling bad for people who are super wealthy, but big picture, she was never given the opportunity to grow on her own and be an independent human being, explore what she wanted to explore, dip her toes in the business waters, dip her toes in marketing and branding, and she never got that opportunity.

So that’s why I think it was a brilliant ending, because sometimes relationships end, and it’s not because one person was a jerk or did something awful. And I think that’s one of the reasons I like it so much, is that there wasn’t much that was trauma dumping or super sensationalized where, “Oh, so-and-so cheated.” Right? It’s just an indicator of sometimes things don’t work, and sometimes we have to choose ourselves. And it doesn’t mean that the other side, the partner, is right, wrong, or bad, it’s just that we’re moving in different directions.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, as you say that, and I tap back into the moment when I saw that, or tap back into what you’re saying, and I’m really resonating with it, yes, and maybe that’s part of this is her last growth step, which was to make a decision to start to mold this new being that she had been putting together alone, as opposed to then having another person there. So I think, yeah, it’s really thoughtful, and I think probably a lot of what was playing out.

Maybe I would just take exception about how quick it happened, like we never got involved in any of that narrative. There was never her reflecting on that or sharing it, it just sort of happened. But maybe that’s sort of what the show does. It doesn’t bang you over the head with stuff like that, and it kind of lets you deal and lets you enjoy it. And I think what you’re saying there is probably true about her, that now as the stories go, regardless of what, Season 6 ends, Alexis has a chance now to be the person that she might deserve to be.

Allison:

Yeah, or even wants to be with, prior to her knowing that. You hit the nail on the head already of her just exploring who she is, and without the money, without things being handed to her, without dating the Saudi prince, et cetera. And I really like that. And there’s one episode too, that I find to be so hilarious, when at the Blouse Barn, her and David pretend to be a lawyer, or Alexis specifically pretends to be a lawyer.

Do you remember that episode, where some company in Australia tries to buy the Blouse Barn name, and it’s Alexis who is like — it’s Alexis and David, but really Alexis who says, “No, I know how much this is worth.” She takes a little bit from her past to help out the owner of the Blouse Barn to get her to retire, which then she eventually gives money to David, which allows him to open the store. And it’s just like she has a good heart and you can tell that, she truly does want to help people. And while it’s probably not legal what she did, it was a really nice moment, and a hilarious moment as well.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean there’s plenty of gray areas, and I think one of the people who play as well in that gray is David. And it is interesting how, the evolution, these characters evolve, and then their decisions make an impact on them and then the world around them. And I think about David, I think about the last episode, and everyone’s leaving, but David, his life is there now. He’s got the Apothecary, he’s got his husband, and they’re going to exist.

And he and Johnny, I mean they might be my, like … he, Johnny and Stevie are probably my absolute favorite characters. And probably David just elevates everyone else so much when he’s with them, and how just dry and sharp he is, and just … he’s awesome.

Allison:

I’m just laughing at so many … there are just so many moments with David where I just want to be his … I know he’s a fictional character, but you just want to be his friend. He’s so funny. And most of the time it’s unintentional. He’s also very honest in a different way from the Rolands of the world. He’s also just a very honest, talk about personal brand again, his unique look is sort of goth-ish in a way, but also very fashion-forward.

Ren:

That’s funny.

Allison:

And he has a —

Ren:

A lot of black.

Allison:

A lot of black. He has a really solid eye for business too, where he started working at the Blouse Barn, and redid all the mannequins, put some mood lighting in there, brought in, I think there were leather ponchos or something. So outside of what you might see at the Blouse Barn. And I think he takes chances in the business world that really work for him in the long run. And one of the funniest episodes, however, is where he learns about write-offs in taxes. Do you remember that episode?

Ren:

You’re going to have to tell me more. Remind me.

Allison:

So he’s ordering a bunch of stuff for this store, and I think he has new sheets or something like that, and a new lamp in the motel. And Johnny said, “Where are you getting the money for this?” And he says, “It’s a write-off.” And Johnny said, “Who is writing it off?” And David’s like, “I don’t know, the government. I don’t know, it’s a write-off.” And they go back and forth. It’s just so funny, his learning curve too, and his awareness of the responsibility that he has to take now, where he didn’t before.

Ren:

Yeah, I am remembering that now, and getting all this brand new stuff, like, “No, it’s totally okay, the business is paying for it.” I think it’s funny to watch his evolution too, as he partners with Patrick, both in that business partner and romantic partner space. But something that sticks out for me for David is loyalty, and that’s a trait for leaders of some of the things that really works. One episode, I think, is when one of David’s ex-boyfriends comes into town, that super famous photographer or something.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

And he’s got beef or dirt on Moira or something, and they kind of leave it, the storyline like, “David’s choosing the photographer over his mom.” And then at the end, we realize like, “Oh, he got the SD card from the photographer.” And he’s actually always holding it down for his family, even if he benefited from the exchange, albeit slightly. And it just seems like, again, these people kind of all grounded around a recognition. And once they got out of their own way, they were able to be maybe closer to the people they wanted to be. I think David’s a really good example of that.

Allison:

Definitely. And getting closer to the people they wanted to be close to was something that’s top of mind for me, too. And we’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about the “fold in the cheese” episode.

Ren:

That is just, I loved … What a good motherly and son moment, too. “What does it mean, fold in the cheese?”

Allison:

“You fold it in.”

Ren:

“You say fold it one more time.” Yeah.

Allison:

It’s so funny. But a bigger lesson too, where they’re exploring, “Maybe we should have family meals together,” and they’re sitting around the table in the motel like, “Well, who’s going to cook?” and Moira says, “Well, I will. I’m the mother.” I’m paraphrasing. And they all sort of look at each other like, “Oh, no. She cannot cook. What are we going to do?” Her and David attempt to cook together, and it’s a slight disaster, again, in the most comical way. But it is this sort of bonding moment for them where they spend time together, where they just hadn’t spent time together as a family. So I think there’s such a build — subtle, and sometimes overt — in that show of how important relationships are at the end of the day.

Ren:

Yeah. And maybe that is some of … it’s just the relationship-first messaging, I think. And we talk it too, in I think our newest bit of work, human-centered leadership, and some of our frameworks around that remind us that we’re people first and foremost, and we work with a whole bunch of other people. And if we can just recognize that, versus pretending like we’re not, it might unlock doors for us. And I think that’s probably something that Johnny did the most, and I think he reminds me of every winner who needs to reinvent and go back to what makes them unique.

Johnny’s this hard-working video store guy. And you see that when he’s in the restaurant and Twyla’s busy, and he just starts to help. And he starts waiting tables, he starts bussing tables, he just starts running the reps. I mean, granted, he was looking for work during that part of his arc, but he’s just that, even as rich as he got, even as wealthy as he got, he was also maybe this kind of grounded, “I’m a hard-working guy. This stuff didn’t happen by accident.” And he reminds us all that real excellence doesn’t happen by accident. And I think he gets to rebuild himself in the image that he wants, which is that hard-working self.

Allison:

Yeah, and he does focus, as well, on his relationships, too. And even though, for the most part, it’s him and Stevie eventually running that motel, he really does focus on her and her well-being, and ensuring she gets days off, because she was the only person running that motel and never got days off.

And I remember one episode where he is trying to give her some sort of staff reward, if you will, and he buys her a giant case of makeup, and it’s hilarious. But you think about his intentions are to recognize the hard work of others, and he’s everything that you said, he’s also very kind and he’s very passionate about what he does. He shows up in a suit and tie, whether he’s changing the sheets, or working at the front desk, or taking pictures for the brand with Stevie outside.

Do you remember when he creates business cards? And I think instead of saying Twitter, he said, “Find us on the tweeters,” or something like that. It’s just so very sweet. He’s very engaged in what he does, and his business knowledge is so complete that it allows him to spend time on his relationships.

Ren:

And yet, too, I think what he’s a great reminder of, is that it’s easy to lose sight of those things. The reason they got into this in the first place is because their business manager did some nefarious things with their monies. And so, he’s a reminder that those muscles, if not worked out, can atrophy. And, which is the fun thing about muscle memory though, I think why he could take to it so quickly or why he was so good at it, was because once we learn to do something and we don’t do it in a while, we actually get back to it pretty quickly.

There’s something about the learned pathways, the familiar-tread walkways, where we get back into that thing and it can warm us back up, it can get us back to where we were. And so if you’re listening, and you’ve ever led or been led in a certain way, or want to go back to that place but it’s been a while, and you’re like, “Oh God, do I have to start over?” Not actually, you’re not starting from the same place you started from in the beginning.

You’ve done some work. Now granted, maybe the weeds have grown on the path and you have to rework some of it, but it’s still there. And so I think Johnny was able to kind of tap into his holistic wisdom about business, about life, about family, and leverage that again, to keep his family together. And that’s, too, just another through line for everyone, is that they’re all just so committed to one another. And he was the reason that the family was together for a while. And I think the reason that Schitt’s Creek became what it was is a lot, in part, because of Johnny Rose.

Allison:

Yes. And perhaps one of maybe the most relevant quotes from Johnny for what we do and what we talk about is this, and maybe this will help us round out the episode a bit. He says this to, I believe he’s saying this to maybe Alexis, actually. He says, “Let me explain something about business to you. It’s a dance, and sometimes you lead and sometimes you follow.” And I think that’s really relevant to what we do, where Alexis is helping with the brand side of things, and Stevie has the historical knowledge and the tradition and the knowledge of the community. And he understands that you have to bring the best people to the plate to allow for a business to run smoothly and let their talents shine, and let them lead in their area of expertise.

Ren:

Yeah. And again, the kind of leader that it takes, recognizing that your job is not to be the very best person at all of the things. Your job is to get the very best people in the room to do all of the things. And again, the through line for me, and maybe a big through line for all of these leaders in the show is, what does it look like to have the character to withstand the shoulds, the oughts, and the coulds? Like, “You’re the boss, you should be making the shots. You’re the manager, you should be doing this. You did all that work, you should be getting credit.”

It’s almost like Truman says, which is ironic, apparently with his beef with Oppenheimer, but, “It’s amazing what we can do when no one gets the credit, or when no one cares who gets the credit.” And I think there’s something about cultivating that inside of you and recognizing that. And when we talk about the social process of leadership at CCL, I think it’s rooted in the idea that the best leaders let leadership emerge in and around the process. And the best leaders aren’t always the one who demand that they be recognized or told or have the role of the leader, but the person who lets their small town and the awesome people in that small town rise, and do what they do best.

Allison:

One thing that we can take away from the show that is emergent with all of the characters is that they allow for the talents and the strengths of others to shine through, and really nourish not only the Rosebud Motel, but the community itself. And yes, there are some difficult conversations that happen along the way, but it all is with the intention of developing, again, not only the motel as a business, but the greater community.

Ren:

Yeah. And so maybe just one thing to buoy onto that, it’s like assume positive intent when you’re in a position. And then sometimes when you’re not or when it’s hard, it pays off the most to assume positive intent. And I think a lot of these people at their best were able to do that, and gave us a fun time while doing it.

Allison:

Absolutely. Well, this was a fun episode to record, Ren, and I’m sure there’s a lot more we could talk about. So to our listeners, if you haven’t seen the show, highly recommend. It is comical.

Ren, you alluded to this at the beginning, but it took me the first couple of episodes to really get into it. Give it time. If you feel that way, just give it a couple of episodes.

Ren:

Yeah. You’re going to love it.

Allison:

I promise it is so hilarious, heartwarming, and has some great leadership lessons along the way. So thanks for the conversation, Ren.

To our listeners, you can find all of our show notes and podcast episodes on ccl.org. Find us on LinkedIn, find us on Instagram too. Let us know, if you were going to be managed by somebody in Schitt’s Creek, who would you want to have as your leader?

And we will look forward to tuning in with you all next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everybody. Thanks Allison, see you next time.

Find Allison on TikTok.

Interview Transcript 

INTRO: 

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership. Maybe you’ve heard about it, maybe you’ve not, and you might not even know who the winner is, but it looks like the dust has settled for now. That’s right. This week, we talk Kendrick Lamar and Drake.

Ren:

Now, at first, I wasn’t picking sides, but maybe I am now, not for any reason related to their beef. I’ll tell you later, though, Allison. But my son surely has an opinion about who’s right and who won. And it sounds like the music industry and the world has an opinion too. Now, while you can track this beef back to 2013 in Kendrick’s verse on Big Sean’s track, “Control,” the temperature 10 years later is hotter than ever.

Who would’ve thought alluding to a Mount Rushmore of rap would cause so much hate, but Kendrick wasn’t having it. After artists J. Cole and Drake linked up for a track, “First Person Shooter,” in October last year, J. Cole alluded to he, Drake and Kendrick holding it down as the big 3. Kendrick disagreed. And this March on Future & Metro Boomin’s track “Like That,” Kendrick reminded us, “Mother blanker the big 3, people, it’s just the big me.”

Now, I’ve taken some artistic liberties with the quote, but I think you get the vibe. Kendrick was saying, “I’m the big dog, not any of you.” And so, why are we talking about something that was released in March? Because it’s still happening. And with the timeline the way it is, it might still go on. Not sure if you saw, but even Tom Hanks reached out to his sons, talking about, “Hey, man, what’s going on with this beef?”

So today, we’re probably not going to be able to read through the lyrics or explore some of these other concepts, but we will look at some big concepts that always come up between people and in leadership. Is all fair in love and war? Are there certain things one can say and do in battle? What about in leadership? What lines cannot be crossed?

And what does success look like in this whole thing? Some industry insiders suggest this rivalry is not about ego, but it’s really about pushing each other to new heights. That’s a really cruel way to do that, I think. It seems like it’s a competition, though, that’s led to some of the best music of their careers. As for who the public sees who the winner is, a lot of people are leaning towards Kendrick.

It seems like his wordplay, his challenges, have resonated with many fans, but Drake is one of the most famous and influential people in the world. So, I think the battle rages on, but we’re going to talk a little bit more about it today and how you might take some leadership ideas away from our newest cultural rap beef.

So, welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, whose side are you on?

Allison:

Ren, I’m operating as Switzerland here on this topic.

Ren:

You’re neutral?

Allison:

I’m neutral.

Ren:

You’re not neutral.

Allison:

I’m neutral.

Ren:

You’ve got to choose.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

What do you mean, no?

Allison:

I’m neutral.

Ren:

That’s hard right now.

Allison:

I know, but I laughed when you made that comment about Tom Hanks because it’s hilarious, and also I had a conversation with my friend Kelly today. So, Kelly, if you’re listening, thank you for the laugh, because you can also ask Siri and Alexa who the winner is, and collectively, they both agree that it’s Kendrick. So, what about you?

Ren:

Do they say why they agree?

Allison:

No, but I’m sure you could probably push it, I bet, and ask them why, which we didn’t do. Missed opportunity.

Ren:

Well, there’s part of me that wants to probe about why you’re trying to maintain neutrality.

Allison:

You can.

Ren:

Well then, why are you trying to maintain neutrality?

Allison:

I’m not trying. I am. I think there’s a couple of reasons. Objectively speaking, it’s a “feud” in which there are lots of people in the world who are watching and commenting. It’s probably a very smart marketing move for both of them. Regardless, you and I and the world will never know every detail of the whole truth. So, that’s the first part. I’m just never going to know the whole truth.

And then, the second part of it was, as I was preparing for this podcast, I found a little bit about the history of hip-hop and rap battles, and these battles have been existing actually before the existence of rap recordings. And so, there’s a cultural part of this as well. That’s simply that. It’s cultural. So, as far as I know and as far as I have found, this type of battle, if you will, has always been a component of music and expression specifically in the hip-hop world.

So that’s why I’m neutral about it, because it’s 2 artists who are expressing themselves … 3, if you want to count … well, there’s probably more than that, but if we’re just talking Kendrick and Drake, 2 of them.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, sadly for J. Cole, I think he’s confirmed Kendrick’s idea that, “Yeah, in fact, you’re not even in the conversation,” and it’s just Kendrick and Drake. I think I’m Team Kendrick, everybody. That’s right. @Allison; don’t @me. But I think the part of my reason is simply because I was listening to Kendrick reflect on existence the other day and just about life as an experience, and I found his reflections to be thoughtful and personally resonant and relevant for me at the time.

And so, I was like, “You know what? I’m Team Kendrick now.” Not because I’ve been tracking the songs at all or really that I care. And also, I’m not really worried about any one of the fan groups coming for me. But there’s something about, maybe, and this might speak to why people are leaning towards Kendrick and maybe some of the things that we can explore today, is this idea of perspective.

And I think Kendrick has a certain perspective that I appreciate. And so, because of that reason, Team Kendrick.

Allison:

Okay. Well, I’m curious to explore that a little bit more. And I would say there are 2 things that came up for me specifically around this story. And the first one, surprisingly, is about AI. And the other one is really around having the ability to express yourself safely, especially when it comes to conflict.

And our world of work and leadership development is not the music industry, so how can we translate that? Again, we don’t know what’s going on or has gone on behind closed doors, and the public and fans exacerbate all types of things when it comes to that industry. So, translating it to our worlds, I think it’s complicated. And part of me really wonders if the systemic nature of the workplace prevents us from effective conflict resolution. So, that’s where my brain went.

Ren:

So, is this rap feud, and the way it’s kind of slowed for now, would you consider this effective conflict resolution?

Allison:

Well, I don’t know if that was the goal.

Ren:

For whom? For those 2?

Allison:

Right. For those 2.

Ren:

Well, I think we … I actually might push back a little bit. I think both of them were pretty damn determined to end this conflict now. Was it like —

Allison:

Was it to end the conflict, or was it to be known as number 1? That’s different.

Ren:

Well, is it? Think about the pugilist society that we exist in, in any kind of sporting event, the winner stands and the loser lies defeated. So, I think, yeah, knocking out your opposition is effective conflict resolution for this group.

Allison:

Well, I don’t want to get too philosophical on you, but playing a sporting event has nothing to do with conflict. It’s a game.

Ren:

Well, let’s get philosophical. I guess, how might you define conflict?

Allison:

How might you define conflict?

Ren:

Well, I would say 2 opposing sides competing over the same thing.

Allison:

Do you think it’s competing? So, if you hurt my feelings and say something that hurts my feelings, what is the competition?

Ren:

Typically, and this is actually fun, because I’m out here in business as we know, traveling around the world, and we just had a conversation … we’re doing our Better Conversations Every Day framework and talking about this idea of discussion. And I often think people are in conflict, especially in my world, in my personal life, but also my professional life, where you and I are competing over whose perception is right.

Allison:

Interesting.

Ren:

I get stuck and I’m like, “Allison, no, this is how I’m feeling. Don’t you understand?” And think about it. I’m always trying to push my perception versus trying to gain some perspective. So, I guess in that instance, if I harm you, the competition would be naturally maybe in the human dynamic to say, “Hey, but this is why, because I was wounded. Can you understand why I do that?” So, maybe that’s my answer.

Allison:

So, I’m hard-pressed to think that Kendrick and Drake want to understand each other better. Maybe I’m wrong.

Ren:

Is that because of the way … Well, why do you think that?

Allison:

That’s a great question. Let me take it back to a more tangible example. If I feel harmed by you or whomever, it’s more about my relationship to you, and me wanting to have a healthy relationship with you. So, I don’t perceive any competition in that space. It is that I feel hurt. This is made up so it’s a little hard, but I’m feeling hurt and I want to have a good relationship with you, and how do we move forward?

It’s about both of us being able to move forward in a way that we both feel resolved. It’s not one or the other.

Ren:

And see what conjures, what that brings up for me, is I actually think these guys need to be okay with themselves.

Allison:

Ren?

Ren:

For real. Think about it. Why react? And think about yourself, too, in the leadership context, or even you, Allison, as you chuckle at the idea. But imagine if you had more peace with yourself, then what would it matter if someone said something about you? So, too, in a leadership context, and again, we were just talking about this in our Better Conversations idea, it’s like, when people give you feedback, they’re really teaching you and telling you about themselves.

I’m not condemning your character or your humanity when I give you feedback. What I’m telling you is that, “Hey, this is who I am and I need this from you.” And so, I think maybe less about how we need to make peace with each other. But maybe these guys, yeah, like you’re saying, they’re not needing to make peace with one another, but they clearly seem to be needing to make peace with themselves.

But that seemed to elicit a little chuckle from you. Tell me more. Is that too meta?

Allison:

Well, you couldn’t possibly know that. That’s, with all due respect, a very bold statement to make. That’s —

Ren:

I don’t know.

Allison:

You couldn’t possibly know what drives an artist, 2 very well respected and successful artists.

Ren:

Fair enough.

Allison:

You won’t know what’s behind that. And so, again, when I think about translating that to the workplace, that’s incredibly relevant because what you just said, if Sam and Joe don’t like each other and Sam happens to be your best friend, what happens at the workplace is that Sam is going to rally you to also not like Joe. That happens. You will not convince me that doesn’t happen.

And so, when I think again about translating it to work, how easy it is to cause an environment that is chaotic and awful when it doesn’t have to be that way.

Ren:

And I guess, even, I agree because I don’t think Sam would do that if Sam had some perspective about their experience. They wouldn’t have to rally the troops against their seen enemy.

And I think that’s so often what we experience is that, the Kendrick and Drake experience is the worst kind of workplace conflict, where conflict resolution is the absolute defeat of my enemy. It’s cruel, it’s callous. There’s no humanity. Emotional intelligence is low. And it’s like this barbs and fight and caustic conversation, real toxic stuff.

But I also think most of my experience … Now, you’re right, I can’t determine what an artist is doing, but I can tell you this. The people who I’ve seen that seem to be, like, the most resolute, the most resilient, the most grounded in themselves are the most unflappable, the most able to withstand and actually be like, “Oh, I see multiple truths and maybe I do have some space to grow.”

And so, I do think there’s some space. If you’re okay with yourself, then what incentive is it to push back to someone else’s perspective of you?

Allison:

Well, I think we’re probably accidentally minimizing what conflict means for people, because that’s one example. But there’s all types of different conflict and all types of different reasons that people may feel rattled, or upset, or in your words, you said unflappable, whatever the opposite of that is, rattled, I suppose. And I think —

Ren:

Flappable, I guess.

Allison:

Flappable. And I think that can minimize people’s experience and what their truth is. So, giving feedback is one example. You’re giving some examples, but do you think that the work world has a system that supports conflict resolution?

Ren:

Do I think the work world has a system that supports conflict resolution? No, probably not, like, a singular approach, because I don’t know if there is a singular approach to conflict.

Now, I don’t think an SBI conversation would be good for Kendrick Lamar to have and say, “Hey, when you said this in that song, it really hurt my feelings. And the impact on me is now I’m building a diss track.” I don’t know if there’s really space to have that kind of discussion.

So, I think it’s kind of right time, right place, or what does your environment call for? And maybe, too, we’ve got to look at what are we perpetuating in that space? So, it always, for me, I think most recently too, coming back to reward and incentive.

Allison:

Indeed.

Ren:

What are people rewarded or incentivized to do? Kendrick and Drake were not rewarded or incentivized to mend bridges. They’re rewarded and incentivized to have this fight, and it pays off. So, I think there’s probably not a standard conflict resolution model, but I do think people might be more aware of the way they resolve conflict in their workspace than they think. I don’t know. Does that make any sense?

Allison:

Yes. And in theory, we do expect people to come to the workplace and do their jobs. And I think a lot of times people just, generally speaking, forget that there’s a human component to it and there’s going to be conflict, period. End of story, period. And in theory, people will perceive HR as a place to go for coaching if they need it when it comes to conflict. And of course, that’s not all that HR does. So, if you’re in HR, I know that’s not all that you do.

However, the system, what I mean by system is that the system of HR can only take you so far, because HR, just like the rest of us, are beholden to legal and employment law, and at work — so, you got me thinking about this — because at work, if we do something “wrong,” depending on the context, the consequences are potentially too great to admit wrongdoing. So, you might not resolve conflict at the workplace for that reason.

Ren:

Well, what a great — actually, what a demonstration of this fight between Kendrick and Drake. The ability to admit wrongdoing is a courageous and sometimes dangerous act. Sometimes, like you’re saying, in a legal context, “Oh, gosh, we made a mistake, but we can’t admit wrong now because the suits are coming.”

But I think, often in relationships, when there is no actual legalese punishment coming your way, it’s just the punishment of maybe having to admit you’re wrong, or dealing with that expenditure of interpersonal cachet when you admit that you’re wrong, that thing is going on. And these guys too, they’re not in a position to admit wrong, and it would be dangerous to do so.

I think the way a normal person, you, me, anyone who’s listening, can take away from that, is that admitting wrongdoing is actually something that adds to your capital versus takes away. We know in the context of trust building, in the context of team building, admitting wrongdoing is a great way to forge connection.

But I think we’re so scared of the risk, and I know you were talking a little bit more legal, but I think people feel the same way. They’re like, “Yo, I can’t afford to say sorry. What does that mean about me?”

Allison:

Right. And it’s the same context, and it can make work conflict, when we’re talking about the organization, can make conflict very complicated, because workplaces have a culture of punishment for wrongdoing. And I’m not saying that’s right, wrong or bad. It’s just it is what it is. That’s across the board, regardless of industry.

And the reason we do is because of a much larger system that we’re both talking about, like legal, economics, policy, et cetera. But it just got me thinking about, this can be a reason why people take work so personally, because sometimes you might not get the resolution that you really need to move forward, based on the things that you mentioned and that I mentioned. So then, what?

Ren:

Well, forgive me, I’m going to keep going back to this well, but the reason we take things personal is because we personally identify with things. And so, in the scope of conflict, let’s say you and I have conflict about this podcast. You disagree with me or think that I’m underperforming.

If I identified, or if I was codependent in this relationship, or your opinion of me or your affirmation of me required my success, then I would have this halted, this stop, this start kind of experience. And so, I think maybe in all of this conflict space, it’s how can I just recognize that things are persistent, that maybe there is no necessary resolution. A lot of conflict, I think too, is a polarity.

It’s challenges to manage versus problems to solve, especially as it relates to complex human dynamics. I don’t know if we’re ever going to solve the problem of the ebb and flow we need to have for your needs and my needs.

Allison:

Yes. And I’m going to just take us a bit further, too, in that yes, what you are explaining is conflict. However, there are other types of intentional conflict, intentional, I mean, that really dramatically impact people’s lives.

So, here are things that I’ve heard from clients before. These are not made up stories. “My boss took credit for my work and got a promotion where I should have gotten that promotion.”

That’s not as easy to say, “Well, I identify that. That’s rainbows and butterflies. Okay, let’s just bypass. Let’s just bypass that that was an intentional effort with a consequence to that person.” That’s pretty impactful.

Ren:

I’d say let’s go both/and. I’m sticking with the polarity. I don’t want to devalue the person’s experience of having their work stolen and someone else taking credit. And I think a major source of marching forward, that person has some options.

They could shrug, they could say boo. They could rattle their sabre, shake their fist, and say, “Does anyone see the wrongdoing that’s happening to me?” And how many clients have we talked about, where that works for them?

I think there’s probably a truth that, “Hey, you aren’t this thing.” I think maybe the idea is like this thing, this person’s stealing from you. That is not representative of you or your character, because bad things happen to you or that bad thing happened to you doesn’t make you a bad person or ineffective.

And I guess the biggest elevated area, the biggest kind of stakeholding you could do is, what would it look like to take empathy for the perspective of someone you really dislike?

Allison:

Ooh, okay. I’m going to pause you because that’s interesting. I’m going to pause you if that’s okay.

Ren:

Please.

Allison:

Do you think it’s ethical to take somebody’s work and then receive the benefits of taking said person’s work?

Ren:

No. But why?

Allison:

So, you would tell a client you should have empathy for that person? Just clarifying.

Ren:

What I would tell a client is empathy is a liberator. It’s a liberator for you, and it might be a bridge builder for that. We talked conflict resolution or real trust-breaking things, like you’re talking about. Someone’s stealing your idea and then getting a promotion.

There is a legitimate conversation that I think is worth having about understanding why that person did it, if only in the context of The Art of War and Lao Tzu and “keep your enemies close,” and “keep your friend close and your enemy closer,” if only to encourage and expand your understanding of why someone slighted you.

But I really believe, regardless of the ethics of that decision, I know that it would be empathic and maybe compassionate to try to understand why that happened.

Allison:

Because? Tell me more, why is that important?

Ren:

Because it’s an act of empathy. Empathy is cultivating an understanding and an awareness about why that thing happened. And then even —

Allison:

Okay. So, client understands that boss, whomever, stole the work because they really wanted a promotion. That’s why.

Ren:

I think that’s … Sure, I guess if you would stop the human desire at “I just wanted a promotion.” Now, I could imagine a story where I just need a promotion because my partner just left me, or my relationship has ended with so-and-so, or maybe a parent just died and I’ve got kids, or I’ve got a mortgage, or a countless amount of infinite reasons humans do what they do. Or, like I said, why they feel wounded.

It could very well be, like you said, someone’s working in an organization for a long time, a new high performer gets in there, they’re kicking ass and the person’s like, “Oh, my God. No, I’ve been here for years and this person keeps on winning. Oh, they have this brilliant idea,” and this person takes credit for it. And the high performer’s like, “What the hell? Why should I have empathy for this person?”

And I’m not saying any of you should, but what I’m saying is, here’s my counter, Allison: without empathy, you got Kendrick and Drake.

Allison:

Ooh, that’s a bold claim.

Ren:

Do you see a lot of empathy in their conversation?

Allison:

What conversations are you seeing and hearing?

Ren:

Well, they have been going back and forth for songs for a decade, but most recently, from —

Allison:

No, what conversations, though, are you hearing and seeing between the 2 of them?

Ren:

The songs, the barbs that they’re throwing back and forth at each other, where they’re talking about, whether it’s, “Yeah, you talking this stuff or X, Y and Z.” Or, “Let me tell you who the real boss is.” Or, “Hey, why is your wife cheating on you?” Or, “Hey, you’ve had this bad relationship with your children.” Now granted, it might not be the healthiest conversation I’ve ever seen, but the idea is they’re not talking at a coffee shop, they’re exchanging messages through their music.

And so, in that conversation, they’re not demonstrating empathy. I don’t see it. They’re demonstrating a lot of hate, vitriol, pain, suffering, pride, ego … maybe some artistry, too, but it doesn’t seem like they’re having a healthy conversation.

Allison:

Well, and again, this goes back to what I said at the beginning, there’s a cultural component to this that is no comparison. It’s just no comparison to the workplace. And you don’t know. You just don’t know. You don’t know what drives them to be doing what they’re doing, and you don’t know what conversations are happening. You actually don’t. You know what music is being produced.

Ren:

Sure. And maybe they’re talking, maybe they’re having a discussion. I think that’s a good reminder though, but I would say, too, that what I do know is my experience. And as a listener, as a consumer of media, as a podcaster, as your partner on the show, I’m being impacted by their behavior. And I can only judge them on the behavior I see.

Heads up for any of you listening, it doesn’t matter what conversations are happening behind closed doors, it doesn’t matter what your intent is, if the people around you are being impacted a certain way by your behavior, then I don’t know if it’s your place to be like, “Hey, you don’t actually know what’s happening.” That might be the case, but I do know what’s happening with me.

And so, just from my point of view, I do think there are some parallels to the workspace, which is to say, conversations that lack empathy create more volatility.

Allison:

So, just feeding back to you what you mentioned a moment ago, you’re being impacted. Where can you have empathy?

Ren:

I think I practice empathy by looking at what they’re saying to each other and not judging them as the worst human beings, because they have said some very callous things to one another. And I think some of what you’re saying is right. I think there is some pushing back and forth. There is some barbs and there is some hyperbole going on, and a lot of wild stuff has been said. And maybe it’s kind of like “all is fair in love and war,” and they love their music and they’re warring with each other.

And so, I think I have an understanding of that. I think culturally, like you’ve said, I have empathy for … There’s not a lot of space for acceptance, vulnerability, admitting you’re wrong in this culture. And so, I understand why no one’s taking the higher road. You know what I mean? I get it.

Allison:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great point. And that’s well stated for the workplace too, exactly what you just said was what I was alluding to. It’s a question to ask yourself, if you are a leader, are you creating a space where there’s room for that vulnerability that you just mentioned, and mistake-making, and admitting wrong? We’ve talked about psychological safety. I don’t want to overdo that conversation.

However, it is inevitable that conflict’s going to happen at the workplace, period. So, it is really about, for a leader, what kind of environment you are creating, given some of the variables that I mentioned earlier around punishment, work laws, employment laws, policies, et cetera. How can you create an environment at the workplace for meaningful resolution when you have some of those barriers?

Ren:

Is that rhetorical or specific?

Allison:

Both.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, I think that’s maybe where we can start to head, is when we think about conflict resolution, and maybe that’s where this moved to for us, as a practical exploration. I think there’s probably some watch-outs for you that perspective is really important. Fighting for your perception, trying to convince someone that you’re right, at least I can say personally, tends to lead to someone else trying to convince me that they’re right.

And so, maybe in that conflict space, I’ll stick with empathy. Maybe my first answer to you would be, what are you doing to demonstrate your understanding of another person’s point of view, especially if you’re the righteously wounded party?

Because I think something we talk about in trust rebuilding is … a couple of things have to happen. One, I think really someone needs to say sorry; 2, both parties need to recognize their role in the reality; and then, 3, the person who is wounded has got to be willing to come back to the table. And so, a good way to come back to the table maybe is to practice empathy. “Why could that person have done that thing to me? Could I understand why?” That might be a first bridge back to connection.

Allison:

Yeah. And I think too, the apology is sometimes, I’d say almost always, necessary depending on the person. It just depends. Changed behavior is better. And so, it does depend on context. It certainly depends on context. So, I gave one example, you gave another example. There’s so many examples of why conflict could occur.

And, in the example of claiming that your work is yours when it was actually somebody else’s, that could look like taking ownership or giving credit where credit is due. So, I think apology, yes, and then there’s changed behavior or an action that comes with that, too. And it’s tricky because, in a perfect world, I would suggest that whomever you are having tensions with or conflict, in a perfect world, you would go to that person at the workplace.

I also understand why you wouldn’t, in some cases. So, it’s a little bit tricky. But I would say, in your perfect world scenario, if I am having conflict with you, Ren, I’m going to come to you, because we have a relationship and I know I can talk to you, versus me going to your boss, or going to HR, or telling all my friends to blacklist you or whatever it might be. It is tricky. It’s tricky.

Ren:

Well, let’s stay with the tricky, and let’s say that we’re Kendrick and Drake, or you’re in that situation. What’s a way that someone might begin to think about opening their heart to resolving conflict as the wounded party? And too often, I think we know in human dynamics, often people both feel wounded because there’s that need to prove ourselves, to keep ourselves psychologically safe, and so often we both feel hurt.

But as the righteously wounded party in an instance, what’s some advice you could give to someone in the workspace to begin to be willing to mend a relationship? So, not the person who’s like, “Hey, admit you’re wrong, and then have a tough conversation.” But being the person who’s been wronged, how can you even open yourself back up to trusting again? What would you say?

Allison:

I’m trying to think about the last time I had a conflict that was resolved, and what happened was, as the “wounded,” that feels like too strong of a word, but I’ll go with it. I’ll go with it.

Ren:

The wronged party, whatever you want to call it, the one who was wronged or something.

Allison:

It was an objective … So, first step for me was to process, and I think that’s understated and very important, because I was upset. I was very upset and angry. And with that unprocessed anger, it would be hard for me to resolve if that’s what I wanted. So, it was for me about taking the time to process before I had a conversation. And then, from there, the conversation was incredibly objective.

“When you said this, it was in an email, so it’s right here. When you put this in an email and copied 6 people on it, I felt really embarrassed and ashamed, and I wondered why you did that.” And that was the conversation. So, I think this is, too … You brought up SBI, which is situation-behavior-impact. And SBI is a great starting-off tool, but it’s not a mic drop. It’s an open door to the conversation.

And then, I got perspective. I did get perspective. So, I think that’s where you start. But then, Ren, what would you say then, if the opposing person … so this person was very receptive. What would you say then if the other person’s not receptive?

Ren:

Well, this is where some of my personal philosophy around self-reliance and fierce accountability comes from, is that if I’m dealing with someone who refuses to take acceptance or accountability for their behavior, the only thing I can do is look at what I’ve done to either give them the right to wrong me or to perpetuate an environment where they can.

Now, I know that might be an oversimplification, and this is something I think you and I will continue to be able to explore, that balance between self-reliance and self-accountability versus … especially if you’re systemically righteously wronged, it’s hard to look at somebody and be like, “Well, take accountability for yourself.” But I also think that if you’re looking at a system or a person who refuses to recognize, who is unable maybe, just incapable of seeing their role in it, then maybe I’ve got to ask myself the plain question, “Why is this person still in my life?”

That could be a legit question. “Why am I still working on this project with this person knowing that they cannot see past their contribution to our experience, regardless of the feedback or the teams around them or the 360-degree assessments?” And so, maybe there’s some of this, “Well, maybe I continue to perpetuate this wrongdoing because I don’t stand up to this person, or I don’t give them better feedback.”

So, I would say if they refuse to recognize their role, then the only thing left for me is to recognize, “What am I doing to perpetuate that communication, even if it’s only just enabling them to continue to be ignorant?” Then I got to be like, “I got to stop that off.” I don’t know.

Allison:

What if it’s your boss? I hear you. You’re right, asking that question. So, let me restart what I’m saying. So, there’s punishment and then there are natural consequences. Punishment is exactly what it is. A natural consequence for wrongdoing or harming somebody very well might be, “This is unforgivable, or I’m unable to move past this because this is a pattern for you, and I will choose to not have you closely in my life,” for example.

That’s a natural consequence. Or a natural consequence is, “Please change your behavior.” Or a natural consequence is, “Can you please give me … you need to give me credit for my work if that’s actually my transcript that you turned into a book,” for example. Those are natural consequences. However, again, I don’t mean to overstate this point, but at the workplace, that becomes very complicated.

This could be your boss, and you might coach someone to then talk to a supervisor and see if you can get a new boss. There are possibilities, but then my whole point is that it becomes very complicated to do what you’re saying.

Ren:

Yeah. It’s not going to be easy. And the stuff that I’m talking about, too, people have been exploring philosophically, religiously, academically for thousands of years, this idea simply that … no one can make you feel inferior unless you give them permission. That’s an Eleanor Roosevelt quote.

And I think it’s the idea that we have a lot of control. Even in that instance — You’re my boss, I’m stuck in a job that I must have because I’ve got to take care of my family, and you keep wronging me, but I can’t go anywhere. Then at some point, you’ve got to cultivate some safety, knowing someone’s going to come knock down your walls every single day. And if you have no option but to withstand, then you’ve got to cultivate some kind of ability to withstand.

Or I think what happens to a lot of people is they start to believe that story about themselves. They start to believe that they aren’t enough, that they can’t do it, that they are this thing that this person keeps on telling them. And so, I know, it’s not easy. It’s not easy, and it sounds so Pollyanna-ish maybe, but I don’t think it is. I think it’s like a root of a lot of these ideas of real, whether it’s stoic philosophy or any idea of peace and serenity.

I think it comes from, in part, within. Especially if you can’t control your environment. But maybe you have to adjust your sails.

Allison:

Right. Yeah, and I agree with you. And last episode, we talked about controlling what you can control. We started to talk about that. And in this respect, too, if it does get this bad, if it does get to that extreme, it is asking yourself, “What can I control?” And can you control who knows what work you’re doing? Can you control your own personal brand? Can you control who you connect with? Can you control your relationships? Can you control, again, who has visibility into the work you’re doing?

This could derail us. I’m going to say it anyway. But part of what was interesting to me about this, too, is that there’s a whole new obstacle that we might have to look at, too, that’s interesting within this, is because somebody made a fake Kendrick response. I don’t know if you saw that.

And it was a short little clip and it was AI-driven. And if you didn’t look closely enough or you’re not familiar with his tone or his way of performing, you might not catch onto it. It was AI-generated. And so, there’s part of that that we do need to be aware of, too, in that someone could … not someone, AI I suppose, someone could use AI to take your ideas and spin them to your own as well.

So, again, I don’t mean to derail us, but only to say that leaders do need to be aware of that, too, from a business standpoint and from a personal protection standpoint, too, being aware that someone could very well take your personal IP and spin it to their own. And that’s conflict in a whole way, because how do you fight that?

Ren:

Well, actually, I think that’s a great segue to maybe a takeaway for anyone listening, and it is actually really resonant. You said, if you’re not aware of Kendrick, or his tone, or who he is, or his messages, then you would interpret that as truth. And that’s some of the story here. It’s like, what are you doing to make sure that — you already called it out — Who knows the value of your work?

If someone keeps stealing your work, you probably have an opportunity to expand the visibility around the work you’re doing. And that’s what happens to a lot of hard-working people who just tell me, “Dude, I just want my work to speak for itself.” Not when there’s a whole bunch of vultures out there trying to speak for your work.

And so, you got to know, shine a light on what you’re doing. And it’s not bragging, but it’s letting more people know about what you’re doing so more people know what you stand for. So, one day, if someone is sniping my voice on AI, and I’m saying a whole bunch of wild stuff about how I love corporate sabotage of people’s careers, and, “I only vote for robo emails,” if someone’s going to clip that, you got to know, “Wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense because we heard him say, on countless podcasts, that that’s not his vibe.”

And so, I actually think it’s a really smart thing in this conflict, too. Or if you feel disempowered in the face of conflict, is tell more people what you’re up to. Let more people in on your experience, your development. Show more of your work so more people know what you stand for, and then maybe they can do the cover for you.

Allison:

Right. Yeah, and I think everything that you just said … So, I won’t be repetitive because I agree with what I said and what you’ve just said, in that understanding technology — you don’t need to be an expert in technology but — a leader in the workplace … actually this is anybody, literally anybody in the world needs to understand that technology can skew things.

Technology is a blessing and a curse. A friend of mine who is in the music industry educated me that technology is almost always used in music, even in “live performances.” There’s technology in microphones to pitch correct, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I think how that translates to the workplace is that we sometimes need to determine what’s real and what’s not real.

A lot of us use LinkedIn. A lot of us use podcasts. A lot of us use research articles, and so on and so forth. So, it’s just worth a quick revisit, as the advancement of technology is moving super rapidly, to understand that your capabilities might need to change, will need to change, rather, in the age of technology. So, understanding technical capabilities is one thing.

And I really think that learning ethics and learning them early in your career, as early as possible, will be very helpful, and media literacy. So, I know I just sort of jumped topics, but it’s all relevant because it can cause conflict if you’re not on top of those things. It can cause major conflict, and it can cause organizations’ downfall as well if we’re not on top of those things.

Ren:

Yeah. And I’ll spare the idea of whose ethics are most ethical for another conversation.

Allison:

I knew you were going to say that. I knew it, that’s why I saved it til the end.

Ren:

But I do like the idea of … I think we’re aligned. Get clear on what everyone wants to stand by and operate by. Technical savvy is going to really help you navigate these things. And then, just keep navigating yourself, people. Don’t let the barbs, don’t let the stones and rocks of other people hurt you.

I actually have a quote in my office. Maybe just like … “A strong man can build a foundation off of the rocks that others throw at them,” and it’s this idea, then, that … let them say what they have to, and I’m here to do the work that I want to do. But maybe those guys are doing that.

Allison:

Is that in your office?

Ren:

Yeah, it used to be. It’s now, I think, a quote on my LinkedIn page maybe.

Allison:

Okay. Nice. Yeah, so I guess my takeaway to reground people is back to controlling what you can control, and especially when it comes to conflict in the workplace, make sure you let people know who you are, what kind of work you’re doing. And just to remember, for those of you who are hesitant to do that, it’s simply you being honest.

So long as you’re being honest, I think a lot of people can perceive that as being show-off or self-centered. However, if you don’t tell people what you’re capable of, they will not know what you’re capable of, number 1. And number 2, you are in charge of creating your personal brand.

Ren:

So, amen that.

Allison:

Well, this episode went a direction that I didn’t think it would, and I’m glad for that. I always love our conversations, Ren. So, thank you. And to our team at CCL who works behind the scenes, also a big thank you for helping us to make these podcasts happen. To our listeners, find us on LinkedIn. You can respond to any part of this that you want.

You want to tell us who won between Kendrick and Drake? Great. Do you want to tell us what you think about conflict resolution? We’d love to hear that too, as well as AI. You can also let us know what you want us to talk about next. And you can find all of our show notes and podcast episodes on ccl.org. And we will look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, everyone.

Ren:

Thanks, everyone. Yeah. Do me a favor. Just email CCL or just LinkedIn them one word, Kendrick or Drake. That’s it. Just do that for me, because they’re very, very particular about professional only, but just hit them up with Kendrick or Drake. Thanks, Allison. I appreciate it. Thanks, everybody. We’ll see you next time. Find Allison on TikTok. She picks Kendrick, by the way.