Interview Transcript

Intro:

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events and pop culture, to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Today, we’re diving deep into the human side of strategy, talent development. It’s more than just training programs and upskilling checklists, it’s about building collective capability in a world that’s anything but predictable. We’re leaning on fresh insights from the Center for Creative Leadership and our new research supporting talent development, creating collective capability in unpredictable contexts.

Spoiler alert, traditional approaches aren’t cutting it. In today’s reality where volatility is the norm and certainty is a luxury, organizations must shift from individual-centric development, to building systems of shared learning and adaptability. Think less, star performer, more resilient team. In this episode, we’ll unpack the research’s key takeaways, explore why context is the new curriculum, and share stories from leaders re-imagining what it means to grow talent, or those who are just stuck in the old ways. And whether you’re in HR, a team lead, or just someone who believes people are the real edge, this one might just be for you.

Ren:

So let’s get into it. Welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what’s your best talent development perspective? If you were leading an organization and you were like, “Hey, I got to develop talent,” or you’re on a team, like what’s the number 1 thing that you would do?

Allison:

Well, I have 2 answers depending on, like you said, if I was an organizational level leader or a team / function leader. So if I was an executive or a more senior leader, I would start by identifying leadership competencies that are necessary for success in alignment with the business goals. That’s simplified, of course, I know it’s easier said than done. And I think if I were a team leader or a function leader or somewhere in the middle of management, gosh. I was thinking about this before we started, and it’s important to note that those mid-level managers play a pretty critical role in talent and development. They sit in the middle, right, so they’re a bridge between strategic goals and frontline execution. So I think, from a mid-level manager perspective, the first thing I would do is identify the strengths and development areas of my team. That’s the first thing, there’s a lot more to say of course, but that’s the first thing I would do. What about you?

Ren:

Yeah, I think that makes plenty of sense and I was thinking about this and not unlike in the research that we’re going to be going through today, there’s a conversation I think that’s undergirding all of it and we’ll talk a little bit around the end. But this idea of like really focus on an organization’s unique context. And I think talent development starts with identifying internally, for myself, my team, your organization, like who we are, what we are, and how close we can get talent to that. And so I don’t think there’s a wrong answer here, but I think it’s interesting to start to explore this idea of talent development.

I think you bring up an interesting point, like middle managers, you play an important role, but you don’t really get to create, necessarily, the massive policies that guide this kind of talent development. And so I think that’s what I’m looking forward to looking at today. There’s kind of 6 points in our research, maybe we’ll get through all of them. I can imagine just kind of going through them as we go. But ultimately, I think the challenge in talent development is really twofold. And I think we talk about this with our clients, Allison, a lot of times. It’s like first, figuring out the skills, the behaviors and the mindsets that matter the most for the organization, and then supporting the learning of those things across the organization. So sometimes I think people identify it, but then they don’t support it. And I think that’s an interesting challenge.

Allison:

Yeah. And I’m interested to talk about some of those challenges too, because the culture has to support the kind of behaviors that are needed to have a strong talent development strategy and execution. I’m curious, Ren, have you ever had a manager who was really, really good at talent development, or not good? And what did they do?

Ren:

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I don’t think anyone’s really popping up for me right now. And I don’t know if that’s just a space that I am in my career, because I think we were like go, go, go. And it’s funny, I’ll talk to people or reflect on going to a workspace and one of the characteristics is find a job where they care about developing you. And I think that’s an interesting frame, because people could care about developing you, but then they just don’t have the time to develop you, which is something I think we need to subvert.

But I think generally, have I had a really good one? I think the managers who, yes, actually, okay, just think of one. One of our leaders in our organization, I found this person to be really always transparent, clear with me, tells me things even if I may not like them. And then I think one of the ways that honed in my development, was less like maybe structures or opportunities, but helping me get a little bit more focused on my skill set. I just wanted to kind of do things and he just said, “Yeah, you’re kind of scattershot though, let’s aim more of your energies in a singular place.” And so I think maybe that was a manager who made a difference on me from a talent development standpoint, kind of helping hone my focus, maybe. I don’t know if that works.

Allison:

Yeah, yeah, that works. And it’s curious too, you mentioned, I’m paraphrasing what you said, the impact that it has on an organization, which I’m sure we’ll get into. But I was looking at, not only our research, but some research from McKinsey and Deloitte and some other folks out there as well, around current workplace desires of employees based on generation. And what’s really interesting is that across 5 generations, what those generations have in common in terms of what they want from their workplace is, career growth and development. So I thought that was interesting. And we found in our research that 41% of employees who move to a different organization, said that they left because they weren’t getting professional development. So I thought that was interesting.

Ren:

Yeah. And what an interesting bridge I think, to maybe the first bit of our research, when we’re helping organizations think about talent development differently. And we’re kind of outlying, if you could do these 6 steps, you’re going to be better positioned for it. And one of the tensions I think you just highlighted is, like the number one step in our research, is pipeline.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And how do we bridge the leadership gap or what we would consider the shortfall between current capabilities and forecasted leadership needs? And I think organizations have, maybe not unlike people in our relationships and stuff, Allison. It’s like we have this, like we take things for granted.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And we don’t look at the pipeline and be thinking of like, people leave organizations, because they’re not being developed. And, oh, by the way, organization, if you develop people, you’ll be able to maintain your success because knowledge stays in the institution. And so I think that idea of like, what is in our pipeline from a talent development standpoint, externally and internally? Can we-

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Fill in roles or stay as effective if people leave the organization?

Allison:

Right. And yeah, you think about too, if any employee could leave at any given time, for various reasons, it could have nothing to do with not being pleased with their workplace environment. It could be anything, right, any employee could leave tomorrow. And so when an organization isn’t focused on pipeline, it creates, of course, a lot more work for other folks as an organization work to fill those roles. But something you said made me also think about culture too, loosely of course, when it comes to pipeline.

The workplace culture needs to support continuous learning and it needs to support empowering and enabling people to take calculated risks and grow and take opportunities. And I think sometimes at workplaces, leaders press the easy button. And instead of developing talent now, even though they might not need to utilize those skill sets right now, they press the easy button and create a hero culture and rely on the people who can do X, Y, Z versus developing everybody, even though they might not need to be deployed for said skill set right now. So it’s an interesting mindset shift I think that some leaders, not all, will have to make, given some of the external variables that we know are impacting workplaces right now.

Ren:

Well, it reminds me of present bias and I think what I’m kind of tracking with you is saying is like, why should I develop this person when I don’t need them in the role? And an example that’s just recently, that I think is really interesting. I don’t watch tons of basketball and these days sports is so far away from my life just because of everything else in my life. But there was a time where I would care a lot more, but I don’t know if you know much about, do you watch a lot of basketball, Allison?

Allison:

Basketball, no.

Ren:

Basketball, yes.

Allison:

No.

Ren:

Well, the New York Knicks, do you know who the New York Knicks are?

Allison:

Yes, I know who the Knicks are, yes.

Ren:

Okay, just making sure everyone out there knows who the Knicks are, basketball team, right from, you guessed it, the New York. And their coach, this long-standing coach, he led them to their best season in a long time, their best stretch of play this century, which sounds fun, but it’s like in the past 25 years. He won a playoff series in 3 consecutive seasons, advanced to the Eastern Conference Finals this year for the first time in 25 years. And they fired him. And they fired him, because they publicize this idea of like, we are trying to win a championship now. And it’s such an interesting idea, a weird kind of sense making that the organization does, like we’re trying to win a championship now, he didn’t win a championship, so we’re going to let him go. We’re looking for someone to give us more energy to get us over that hump.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And it’s like, if you look at the record, these things build, he’s trying to build this idea. So it’s almost like a short-sighted pipeline, because the success they’re having now isn’t because of a magic pill they took this year, it’s like over the past 4years of development.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And so I think organizations that are able to keep that idea, like, I will need this later, or this is building to something, versus, I’m not going to do it, or worse yet, you’re not winning as much as we need you today, so you’re out of here.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

I don’t know, it’s such an interesting idea

Allison:

Yeah. And there’s a time and a place, right. It can make sense, but it can also hurt you in the long run. And are you ready for me to just stick with sports analogies for a second? I’m sorry to our listeners who don’t like sports.

Allison:

I’m sorry about it.

Ren:

Please. Yeah. It’s okay everybody.

Allison:

Ren, do you know who the Pittsburgh Steelers are?

Ren:

I do know who the Pittsburgh Steelers are.

Allison:

So I grew up in Pittsburgh and by blood I am required to be a Steelers fan, though, with full transparency, I don’t really care, I could care less. But the Pittsburgh Steelers are bringing on Aaron Rodgers, I don’t know if you saw that.

Ren:

I did not.

Allison:

Aaron Rodgers, who’s, in football years, considered to be outside of his prime.

Ren:

Geriatric. 

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yes.

Allison:

Outside of his prime. People in Pittsburgh are up in arms about it, because, if I can make the analogy here, or make a connection, they just did not create a pipeline from Ben Roethlisberger, who won, I don’t even know, however many Super Bowls, and went to the playoffs pretty much I think every year that he was on the roster. They did not develop, they didn’t, again, I’m sorry to my Steelers fans, because I’m sharing what I know, which is very minimal, they didn’t backfill, they didn’t develop. So it’s a bit of a reach, but it’s the same concept. If you’re a star player, if your top performers, your top 3 performers on your team all left tomorrow, what would your team look like? And it’s something to consider.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

It is, like people don’t always love sports analogies, but it is the same thing. If your star people left tomorrow, how much are you relying on them, number 1? Are you overworking them and what’s your pipeline look like? Would you be shooting yourself in the foot if they all left tomorrow?

Ren:

Yeah, I think that that’s exactly the point. And yeah, I know, probably some Steelers fans, I would love to watch you debate someone about Steelers football, Allison, that’d be super fun.

Allison:

Listen.

Ren:

New podcast idea.

Allison:

I won the fantasy football championship this year, I’m just saying.

Ren:

You know what? I hung up my spurs after winning 2 in a row and I’m like, I don’t think I’m ever going to come back, I get to end up on top. And football is an interesting thing about pipeline and I think just like the experience that goes on there. But something that you said that I think is the point, is that anyone on any team, if you’re not prepared for your best people to leave, if you couldn’t pick up the slack, then maybe you’re missing something. And I think there’s a reality, like the organization will do what it did without you when you leave again.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

It was working before you got there, it will work afterwards.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And so maybe I think that’s too, something where we can lose sight of developing talent, is that we just know the truth that,in like your example, I’m not going to develop talent because I don’t need it today. And it might hurt when someone leaves, it might sting, I might say to people, in an all staff, “We should develop talent different.” But I think this whole purpose of our research is, how do you start to create a culture of that? Because if we don’t have the attitude to sort of do that, then we’ll just replay the pain.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And yeah, you sort of see that in some of the things there, but that’s something that I … I think you hit the nail on the head, it’s like, just how can you prepare yourself, insulate yourself if your top 5 performers leave tomorrow? Will that crater you? If it will, then you need to guard yourself.

Allison:

Yeah. And just to highlight your point even more, building a talent pool now with needed skills across however large your team is, across the team and preparing for what obstacles we know are going to come down the pipe, it’s essential. It’s absolutely essential, for the greater good of the organization too, it’s not just about your team functioning. But focusing on pipeline really helps to sustain the organization’s success, it really does. Why do you think people avoid doing it?

Ren:

I think it’s that present bias.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And it kind of goes to the conversation around like, I think the next piece of our research is this idea of, if the pipeline’s important, then focus is the next shift. And we would, I think, boil it down to these 3 primary areas of focus. Like how do you strengthen your pipeline? You help people identify areas of personal growth, you manage people and the work they need to get done. And you manage across the organization that kind of network. And I think the business goes too fast a lot of times, and so we don’t think about what we need to inform. And some of the need for pipeline development or talent development strategy through this focus, is this question of, and you highlighted this a couple of times already, it’s like, what do people need and want now? That’s one question that we have to ask for development, I think. So the answer to your question, like why isn’t the pipeline strong? We’re not asking that question.

But then the other questions we’re not asking is, what do you know that you need to be ready for?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And you just said that.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And then additionally, maybe most importantly, what do you need to be ready for that you don’t know about?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And what is that next thing that is coming around the corner that you have no idea. Because you should prepare for eventualities that could happen.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And then you should be preparing for eventualities that you don’t think could happen? Like, “Oh, that’ll never happen.”

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I’d be like, “You need to be careful.”

Allison:

Right. Right, don’t say that.

Ren:

So I think all of that probably is in the cocktail. Yeah, definitely don’t say that, “That’ll never happen.” So I think that’s all in the cocktail of why people don’t do that. But I don’t know, why do you think people don’t fill the pipeline or don’t focus on those things, or what’s getting in the way?

Allison:

Well, sometimes I think people don’t know how, or they will see some companies who say, well, that’s HR’s job. And it’s part of their job, but it’s also a manager’s job to get to know their people. And if I can simplify it as much as I can for somebody who might be a mid-level manager, who’s not going to create strategy for this, who’s not going to create a talent development and capabilities strategy for the organization, getting to know your team’s goals is really important. And that stays the same for people who … Some people are happy in their role and they want to stay there, they want to stay in that role. Some people have goals to be at the next level.

That’s a really simple in concept, place to start, because what I can say is, as a manager, “Hey Suzy, you want to be the VP of Ops or whatever, here’s where you are now and here’s where you need to be.” It’s like 2 plus 2 equals 4, you can look at job descriptions and start there and know people’s goals. I think where some mid-level managers get hung up, is they don’t know how to do it and they don’t know how to give feedback, or are afraid of it. We talked about this a little bit at the start, which was like, creating a culture that can allow for a pipeline. And same with the focus, which is the second step, to develop people, you have to have honest conversations with them, like the manager you mentioned, was always straight with you. So knowing somebody’s goals and then being able to generate feedback conversations around that, is really important.

Ren:

Let’s chase that rabbit right now. Point 5 in the research is conversations.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And it’s so interesting, it’s like why don’t we talk more? And you ask the question, why isn’t the pipeline filled and why don’t we talk more? And again, I think this idea of one of these scariest false paradigms is, I don’t have the time. Which is realistic, because it connects to the third point in the research, was this idea of overload. How do I reach overloaded employees?

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I think it starts with some conversations, where we have to have a real conversation with each other around what’s happening, what’s going on. But really, I think too, this idea of conversations rooted in candor and psychological safety and trust, those cultures of feedback yield better business outcomes. And I think sadly, we’re not equipped to have those conversations anymore, like from childhood on upwards, from what I observed and even in my weaker states, do not really revel in conflict, don’t engage with conflict with people who have really oppositional views from me. I find myself in cocktail parties fiercely agreeing with one another, you know what I mean? Where we’re outraged around the same stuff.

And so I think there’s a muscle that can be built up in conversation, I think it starts with feedback. I think it starts too, with accountability. Like I let one of my teams down recently and that sucked for them, and it sucked for us too. It wasn’t a good look, it wasn’t a good look for the org, it wasn’t a good look for me and I just had to own that. And it reminds me of leadership disclosure. I had to tell people more about what was going on, my weak points, why they didn’t work and ask for feedback.

And so I really vibe with the idea of like, as a manager or as anyone in the organization, feedback can help you get into that talent development space. And real conversations, honest conversations about growth, about failures, about limiting edges, that stuff makes a difference for talent development.

Allison:

Oh indeed. And it’s interesting you brought up conflict. Can you share more about conflict as it relates to these conversations?

Ren:

Like talent development conversations?

Allison:

Yeah, is that what you were saying? Like conflict in a talent development conversation?

Ren:

No, I was just saying more like generally, I think Americans don’t know how to have tough conversations with each other.

Allison:

Yes, yes.

Ren:

Because we’re like-

Allison:

That’s another podcast.

Ren:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think everyone finds themselves fiercely agreeing with people so much that when they meet someone in the opposite end of the spectrum, whatever spectrum it is, they start shouting at each other, because they finally have a chance to tell the other person on that other side, everything that’s wrong.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And I think too then, when you think about, well, that’s a value-based issue, then likely in someone’s talent development, that’s a value-based issue. Someone’s trying to develop their career or themselves and then, it can get heated with a manager or a system that’s not developing it. And so we don’t talk about it or we don’t talk about it effectively.

Allison:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting. And I think talking about it effectively, the more you can just normalize having conversations about performance, the better. Which I know is easier said than done, depending on your organization. But again, I always encourage people to remember that you can love your job and find purpose in your job, you also don’t have to, but you can find great joy and heart in your job, but also be objective about it and remember that your job is to do what’s on your job description. And it can be as objective as that, to look at your job description with your manager and say like, “Where am I doing well, where are my gaps?” Because it’s an agreement, “We’re going to hire you, run to do these things. Here, we’ll let you know if there’s other things we need you to do. How are you doing? We hired you to do it. How’s it going?”

It can be that objective. So you can hold those2 truths together at the same time, sometimes people get really hurt over critical feedback, when really, critical feedback can help you to grow and it absolutely helps you to grow.

You’re also making me think, Ren, about psychological safety, which I know we’ve talked about ad nauseum, probably on these podcasts. But you have to find ways to engage people in a way that you can have those candid conversations that develop trust and growth. And when I think back to the sports analogies, or let me even take it a different way. If you were in a band, you would want to know if you were sharp or flat, right. Because it impacts the rest of the band, and it’s not a personal attack on you as a human. So finding ways that you can create alignment, that feedback is for the greater good.

Ren:

Yeah, that’s real growth mindset stuff. And I think thinking with an abundance mindset too, there are no real failures, just a failure to learn from those things. And too, in a talent development space, I think that makes sense, like you’ve got to create an appetite for failure. As we have the learning curve, where we know that we try a new thing, we’re doing really well, we plateau, we’re great, get a new task, and all of the sudden the performance dips, because we’re not as effective as. And then we get better at it, then our performance lifts. And I think, often, talent development doesn’t happen because in order to develop talent in spaces outside of one’s comfort zone, they’re going to have to get uncomfortable. And sometimes, when you’re uncomfortable, you don’t know what you don’t know and you’re not performing that well.

And so I think there’s something to recognize, like, “Hey, A, take the feedback, ’cause what do you want to know? B, be willing to give the feedback. And then C, also create an environment where we’re more than our outcomes.” And something about the people first kind of perspective that you said, I think connects to what I’d mentioned a little bit over, like this idea of overload. Where organizations struggle to develop an overloaded employee base.

Allison:

Yeah. 

Ren:

Where it’s like, “Hey, we have a development calendar, sign up for these learnings.” And people are like-

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

“I can’t, I have too much job.” Or worse yet, they mandate learning, the organization does, where they’re like, “Here, get developed, but also, don’t you dare underperform. You better work 2 jobs this week.”

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And that’s super hard, the human element, I think, is something that needs to get managed. So the human element showing up in that space for feedback, matters, like how you interact with someone, it’s not personal, but creating an environment of trust and safety. And then recognition too, that once you can see the human in the overloaded space, maybe you can do some different things with talent management.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s interesting, because you’re right, a lot of organizations will have opportunities for “talent development,” “Come to this webinar, come to this speaker.”

And they do invest time on that and then can become frustrated when people don’t attend without digging into the why. And if employees are overloaded in their roles and overwhelmed, it’s going to be hard for them to make those types of decisions. Even for, like thinking about the immediate future and their immediate growth and development, when they’re busy and overwhelmed, it’s just very, very hard to make time for that. As we know, the research finds, with employees and athletes and musicians and top performers across industries need breaks and constant overload does not foster a growth mindset. In fact, it sets you up to make more mistakes and fail, so. It’s just something to look at, is there an easy answer to that? Probably not. But to your point, focusing on, or identifying overload will help you to reach those busy and overloaded employees in a better way, just to be able to understand where they are.

Do you know what’s funny, is I once had, this was years ago, not at CCL, somebody I managed said, “Please don’t develop me. Please don’t focus on developing me.”

Ren:

That’s funny.

Allison:

And we laughed about it. He laughed, so I laughed and I was like, “Okay, what do you mean? Why?” And he said, “I’m so overwhelmed in my role right now that I’m just doing what I can to make sure I’m hitting all the objectives that I have to for this role specifically.” So, important to have those conversations.

Ren:

Yeah, it’s interesting. And you asked the question, like is there an easy answer? And I guess, I think our human centered approach would be our answer at CCL. And I was looking up other perspectives on talent development too, saw this quote from Sean O’Hara, the Director of Accounting, Reporting and Internal Controls at Nissan North America. So a nice simple title for this guy. But he manages a team of over 140 people, pretty high in the organization. And his motto is, “People, quality, then profitability.” He doesn’t say, “Then,” then he says, “And profitability.”

And there’s something, I think the answer to the overload is, starting with the person. I think there’s other ideas to continue to build development into the jobs that people have to get done. Which is sort of what we talk about in the final idea of scaling this kind of talent development conversation. But I think it always grounds into people, and where we just left, it’s like safety too. The guy felt safe enough to tell you, “Hey, I don’t want development,” right. And that could be dangerous.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

But then you were like, “Well, tell me more.” And he says, “I’m just trying to succeed in the job, I don’t have time.” What a candid and real conversation. So we start with that people part, and then we start to ask ourselves, how can we maintain the quality of our product while also trying to achieve your individual development goals? I think that’s the stuff that leads to profitability, versus people contributing and then leaving, so.

Allison:

Indeed.

Ren:

Yeah, yeah.

Allison:

Indeed. And I encourage managers to get away from the hero culture mentality too, which I already mentioned, but it is. Don’t be afraid to develop your “underperformers” that a lot of times cultures will punish instead of develop. And what I’m not saying is to ignore gross misconduct, that’s not what I’m talking about. But your folks who are struggling, it is your responsibility to help them and stop relying, holistically, on your heroes, because that drains everybody.

And one thing that we loosely mentioned but haven’t named yet specifically, is that adaptability. So, Ren, you talked a lot already about being future oriented in mindsets, and it’s interesting to think about the mindset that is needed now. Again, just given some of the obstacles that a lot of organizations are facing. People just need to adapt how they’re working and adapt their frame of reference and their frame of mind to be able to approach challenges in new ways. So again, I’m paraphrasing something you said a few minutes ago, which was, what is it that we don’t know? Like-

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Getting into those conversations right now, like what are the things we don’t know? What should we do? Like how can we generate a conversation about that? So, expanding of mindset is not an easy thing to teach necessarily, if you lead a team. But there are ways you can ask the right questions and generate dialogue with your team just to think about challenges in a new way.

Ren:

Your example of developing your underperformers is such a great example. I think, probably, if any leader has some underperformers, it might even be triggering for you. You’d be like, “I don’t want to do that.”

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And that might be the perfect sign of your need to change. Because I think you’re right, it’s like, the only guarantee I have for you is that change is coming.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And adaptability is required. Maybe shifting our perspectives, I think your example, again, maybe they’re underperformers because they don’t get developed. There might be-

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Performance there, with time spent sharpening that saw.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Especially if other people are doing the job well. So yeah, I think that adaptability, the need to shift our looking, our mindset, I think adapt how we’re adapting to execute business strategy. I think things that used to work don’t always need to keep working and they’re worth observing. And I think people too, really matters. We say in our research, “Effective leadership requires not just skills but also greater capacity. While growing leadership competencies is necessary and important, it’s no longer sufficient.” And I think that’s the root when you and I talk vertical mindset or use our assessment, the vertical mindset indicated, it’s not like adding another framework. It’s changing the way we use the information-

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And looking at, or trying to seek new information and use it and apply it in different ways, even future proofing.

Allison:

Yeah. And I like the question too, on that note, is, to consider whether you’re an organizational leader, C-suite executive, senior leader or not, and this question can be considered by all types of leaders. Which is, what type of future are you building toward with your team? And sometimes that’s an easier question to start to generate ideas around, versus, what are the challenges that are coming our way? Because sometimes we don’t know, and other times we get stuck on the challenge then, instead of what are we trying to achieve? What can we do? What are some of the actions we can take? So I like that question as a place to start, but you’re right, it can be complex, for sure. I think we’ve touched on all of them so far.

I’d love to get into a little bit more of talking about scale. So what are some tips we can offer people to start to scale this kind of thing?

Ren:

Yeah, I think it’s hard to do this work across the org, and I think all of these things kind of build up to this point. One of the things that I think, we have these little takeaways in the research, these little blips of, ultimately I think scaling is rooted into the idea of developing the whole organization, not just your high pos, not just your execs. I said in the beginning, it’s like this idea of getting focused on your unique context. What is the organization trying to achieve? How do the people fit inside that? Tie people and development to the people, in the work that they’re doing, and then just starting to be honest about starting where you are, I think are ways to start to set the stage for this scale.

I mean, all of it starts to come into this environment, what is the functional environment that we have? Do we support development? What does support look like for development? How can we add development into the stuff that must be done? I think these are the conversations that we can start to have when an organization or leaders are interested in scaling some of that development.

Allison:

Yeah. And I think too, even adding to what you just said and focusing in on some tacticals, is that you can start by offering development opportunities for people. Again, keeping the story I had in mind, making sure that your people have the space for it and the appetite for it, but offering development opportunities where people can learn new skills. And that will be different, again, depending on the organization and the industry. But also, emphasizing learning as a benefit for everybody and not being afraid to take the long way, knowing that it will sustain your organization.

Again, I think a lot of leaders just say, let’s press the easy button, “Ren, you’re really good at X, Y, Z, so we’re going to keep putting you on that.” Even though Susan over there really wants to be learning in that space, but we haven’t given her the opportunity just for sake of like easy button. So get away from the easy button, understand what’s coming down the pipe and understand your organization’s context too. Again, I know some of our listeners probably are responsible for strategy, some probably aren’t. And I think you can take action, really from wherever you are in the business.

Ren:

Hey, I was just reflecting on what you were just saying there and some of the stuff we’re saying, and it’s going back to your question of the pipeline. Why isn’t the pipeline full, or why do we develop talent? I think we have to change our metrics, not to hit us-

Allison:

Agreed.

Ren:

With the deep philosophical conversation, as we do right when we close the door.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

But I think it’s just this idea of, if a quarterly performance, if year over year numbers weren’t the only thing that indicated an organization’s success, then you could start to develop talent in the confines of the organization. Whereas, pipeline, succession planning talent across the organization, ready to do any job, as a success metric, then that could rise to the top, versus I think the truth of just publicly traded companies. Investors expect that their money is returned and with interest.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

And so I understand the organization’s standpoint and any leader working inside of one who’s like, “Look, this is our prerogative. And it’s not even a personal challenge, it’s just like, if I don’t do this, then I don’t have a job, then you don’t have a job, then we don’t have a job.” And so I think there’s, in some places, there’s probably not much from a cultural organizational, how do we look at talent as part of our win? But maybe as that individual manager, there’s probably a couple of things you can do, helping see people make sense of the development, trying to minimize the overload and burden, I think help them get developed in the confines of their own work so it doesn’t feel like it’s extra. I think really with your people, I think some of the scaling factors probably are in the power of a few hands. But geez, I don’t think it’s easy in an environment where someone says the thing that matters is return on investment, therefore I can’t afford to develop my talent even though it might hurt in the future, the pressure of today is just too much.

Allison:

Yeah. And I’d be really interested to know, gosh, I know we’re doing the doorknob thing. I’d be really interested to know what percent of publicly traded companies who are in the top, financially I mean, what percent of them have a talent development strategy or invest year over year. Like I’d be very curious to know those metrics, I’m sure I could probably… It’s got to be out there somewhere.

But again, you do have to know when your organization is ready for it. And if your organization is not ready to scale it, that does not mean that an individual leader has to prevent or not develop their team. And we talk about scaling, like one of the metrics, or one of the things that we do, actually, here at CCL, is help organizations define what competencies they need at the organization. Which is a huge project, it’s a huge undertaking and can serve the organization pretty holistically once you get those nailed down. But it does take some time. So scaling can look different depending on the organization’s readiness, et cetera. And the culture, as you mentioned, and the culture. I mean, we have to be real too, gosh, do I even want to get into it, because now I feel like I’m going to just take us down a rabbit hole.

Ren:

I mean, we have a few more minutes.

Allison:

Yeah, you know-

Ren:

Say it.

Allison:

I know.

Ren:

It’ll be nice.

Allison:

Okay. Okay, it’ll be nice. So, we also have to be honest too about competition within organizations. We have to be honest about power structures. We have to be honest about leaders who intentionally prevent development, like those things happen too. So there’s a whole other conversation to be had around some of the behaviors that can prevent development even if you do have a good strategy. I don’t want to leave us on that though, because that feels pretty heavy.

Ren:

Well, I think it’s perfectly reasonable when we think about the complexities of all of this. It’s the tension between strategy and culture, and I think the old adage, strategy eats culture for breakfast, or culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I think, I don’t know, did I tell you that story about that strategy guy I was working with, and he said-

Allison:

I don’t know.

Ren:

We were having that conversation and we have that picture of the elephant, which is culture eating the piece of loaf of bread, which is strategy. And we’re like, culture eats strategy. And he goes, “I’ve only ever heard HR people tell me that.” And it was very funny. I think I have told you that, because I think you had the exact same reaction. You’re like, “I don’t know. I may not agree, sir.” But I think it’s a polarity, where it’s like-

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

I mean, you could have the best plan in the world, but if you have people actively subverting it, or an institution that doesn’t incentivize the growth of other individuals, then it’s not necessarily going to vibe.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And I think that’s probably a good reminder of, whether or not you have the talent strategy, you’ve got to find an ebb and flow between the work that has to be done and how to develop between the tensions that exist around you and your goals or the people around you in their goals. And I think that something too that’s interesting about talent development, maybe one of our last thoughts or my last thoughts, is that it also comes down to the individual.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

No one is going to care about your goals more than you do, because they have their own goals, it’s weird like that, isn’t it? And so it’s not like no one doesn’t care about you, it’s that people wake up and they have their own stuff to take care of. And an organization may not look out for you first, because they might be publicly traded, or they might not be. But either way, there’s something about like you as the individual just sussing out your own path, creating some energy around you if you’re able to, try to build some of that connection, so maybe scale starts with the individual.

Allison:

Yeah, I like that. And I have to tell you, so I’m sitting in front of my window, okay, I just need to give you this picture right now, this feels like a metaphor. There has been a hawk that’s been circling right outside the window this whole time.

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

I don’t know if you’ve noticed Ren, but it just passed again, it’s enormous and it’s been chasing off this little bird, that I sort of feel bad for. It just seems like there’s a metaphor in there somehow, with what you just said about your culture eats strategy story. But maybe that’s a reach, I don’t know. Regardless, I like what you’re saying, is there’s a responsibility for the employee too to take on their own development and communicate. There is, and your manager is your partner in that. It can be really helpful to think about your manager as a partnership for you to sort of help you to create a plan for your own development. And again, it’s never going to hurt an organization to develop talent, maybe you’ll fight me on that Ren, I don’t know. Maybe that’s conversation for another time, but it can only help. It can only help the success of a business strategy to have a solid plan for developing talent at your organization.

Ren:

Yeah, I think someone could debate it, but I won’t. I agree with you, I think.

Allison:

Okay, thank you for that.

Ren:

I think it’s a boon, so I agree with you.

Allison:

Well, are there any last thoughts you want to leave for our listeners? Well, what I’ll say first is that CCL has a really excellent research paper out on talent development. That really outlines all of the steps that you can take, whether you’re an organizational leader or not, with some links to things like difficult conversations like Ren and I were talking about just now. So I would encourage you if you are listening, to seek out that article and you can find it on the Google, if that’s the easiest way, and on our website. The title of that is, “Supporting Talent Development.” So you can find that. But in the meantime, Ren, any other tips you want to leave for our listeners?

Ren:

Just echo, I think, some of that adaptability. Just ready to future-proof yourself.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Some of talent development is preparing yourself for a future that you’re unsure about, that you’re always ready to flex, to be dynamic. I was just reading this idea of the 45 to 54 age gap, that space is that, if you have to leave an org at 45, that age group is widely employed, but once they’re not, it’s incredibly hard for them to get a job. They experience more ageism than any other kind of working group. And so it’s just an interesting example, like even when you think that you’ve got your perfectly built career, everything’s all stable, you never know. And so just be ready, just be ready. And I think organizations, the same, and so develop, continue to develop.

Allison:

Yes, future-proof yourself. I like that as a tagline for you as an individual and for your organization. So thanks for the conversation, Ren. For our listeners, you can find all of our podcast episodes and show notes on ccl.org. And check out our next episode, which will be likely this early fall, as we move to more of a quarterly cadence with our episodes. In the meantime, find us on LinkedIn, let us know what you want us to talk about. Let us know how your talent development is going. And to all of our CCL peers behind the scenes who make our podcast happen, a big thank you to all of you. And Ren, I’ll look forward to chatting with you next time.

Ren:

That’s right. Thanks Allison. Thanks everybody. See you in the fall. And find Allison on TikTok while you wait.

Interview Transcript:

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Earlier this month, Corinne Diacre, head coach of the French Women’s National soccer team, was fired from her job, just 4 months before the Women’s World Cup this summer. The reason? Malfunctions that seemed, in this context, irreversible. Not my words, but the words of the  4-person panel commissioned by the French Football Federation’s president, Philippe Diallo. He commissioned the panel to investigate claims about the culture in the team. Now Diacre’s not just another head coach let go of another job; she has quite the history. She was appointed as the first ever female coach of the French Women’s National team in 2017, and quickly made her mark by leading the team to an International Cup victory in 2018 in Portugal.

However, her tenure was not without its controversy, and her leadership style was frequently called into question. A disappointing showing at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021 was the most recent in a series of missed opportunities and losses. And now, after the firing, we’ll be exploring the different aspect of Diacre’s leadership style and see what we can glean from her firing. On the one hand, she was known for her strong personality and her ability to motivate her team to achieve great things, and on the other hand, her authoritarian approach may have alienated some of her players and staff, ultimately contributing to her downfall. So welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what’s the most discouraging behavior you’ve ever experienced from a leader?

Allison:

The most discouraging behavior … I would like to give you 2, because they’ve both had quite an impact. One was belittling me and others, in front of others, and the other was a severe lack of boundaries, which led to middle-of-the-night texts for work requests, giving the silent treatment, texts on weekends with work requests, and just very inappropriate communication behaviors. What about you?

Ren:

I want to come back to the silent treatment one, but probably the only behavior was maybe lording over the position, saying the words, “You’re just lucky to have a job.” And then that behavior excusing just the most poor and maybe irreversible behavior of its own.

Allison:

And so I’m curious, if you don’t mind sharing, what was the impact of those words on you? Like, you’re just lucky to have a job?

Ren:

Well, I mean there was some truth in that statement. There were plenty of people not working, and it was back in the day when I was waiting tables and being a bartender, and I needed the job. And I’d say that, long term, it certainly didn’t cultivate what I would consider sustained energy or loyalty to him as a manager. I think maybe if not for the pride I had in my work and the necessity to perform, I didn’t have much other motivation. So I’d say, a long way to say, a lack of motivation is probably the impact on me.

Allison:

It’s funny, it’s one of those scenarios where just because it’s true doesn’t mean you have to say it. Just because it was true that you were lucky, it does not mean you have to say it in a way that it sounds to me a bit threatening and condescending.

Ren:

And I think maybe the impact as you were starting to explore around the motivation and maybe before we go forward on that trail of motivation, what about you? I mean, you rattled off a series of behaviors that were maybe a bridge too far. What was the impact like for you?

Allison:

It was pretty tremendous, and I was younger in my career and I would say, just younger as a human being, and didn’t know how to advocate my for myself much. And so I developed an anxiety disorder. I had to go to therapy to work that out, and it was scary for me to go to work. I remember, I recall going to the office and trying to find an office that was as far away from this person as possible because they were just constantly just, like you said, lording over. It was constant. So it almost would take me the whole podcast to describe to you how the impact was on me, but it was life altering for sure.

Ren:

Yeah, and I think that maybe is what I’m most interested in exploring today, is the impact that a leader has on altering the lives of those around them. And not only from a positive standpoint, but just from some of the negative experiences that you’re talking about. And again, too, you highlighted some of what I hope to talk about today, is the mental weight that is expended on individuals with leaders who bring toxicity into their experience. I mean, I’m most interested in exploring in a lot more detail where accountability falls, and just the truth that all leaders listening — yeah you, listener, listening — that maybe finger-pointing is not the play. But before we get too far into that, a little bit more around Corrine Diacre.

And something that you said around motivation, because like I said, up top, it’s not too wild to hear about a coach being fired, but what I thought was interesting was this almost critical mass, and I read this really amazing story of Diacre from 2018, and by all accounts, a female, French, soccer player, national hero. She is an icon really for doing something as a defender in French national football that is representative of the kind of clout that she brought to the game. And then getting her appointments not only in the women’s national team, but the men’s national team and other groups around football. It’s interesting to see her be positioned for such success and heralded for most of her career for doing what I would consider coaching like a lot of sports coaches do. I think you’ve played some sports before, right, Allison? What was your A-number one sport?

Allison:

Oh, soccer was my first love.

Ren:

Soccer was your first love.

Allison:

And I haven’t played in years, but I love the sport. Or should I say football? I don’t know. We’re American, so we can say soccer I suppose, but soccer and tennis. I love both sports, and when I was growing up into my early college years, it was my absolute obsession.

Ren:

Well, okay, so then this’ll be a personal exploration of coaching and then maybe leadership, but give us a glimpse into your coach’s style. When you played soccer at the height of your performance and maybe the height of your passion for the game, what was the coach’s style like?

Allison:

There was a head coach and an assistant coach, and I would say they had a good balance between them of direct, more intense style. I wouldn’t call it dictator style, but I would call it direct and sort of intense. And the other one had more of a style of telling us what we were doing well, predominantly. And so that really worked for me because sometimes it calls for a direct approach, sometimes it does. Sometimes it calls for, “This is what you did really, really well,” or, “This is what we, rather, are doing really, really well, so do more of that and let’s not think about the mistakes,” because there’s a lot of mental aspects to most sports. So there was a good balance between the 2 of them.

Ren:

And I haven’t had a chance to read Corrine Diacre’s autobiography. Her star player who left the team now, I’ll say more about that in a moment, she had an autobiography that I was able to take a glimpse or 2 in and get a peek into Diacre’s experience with her. And by all accounts, it kind of reads, at least from the outside, that Diacre was a lot more of the serious and the hardcore versus the balance. And she’s gone on to say soon after to her firing that this is a smear campaign against her name, that things aren’t that bad, that she’s being a victim here in this scenario. But I think historically maybe, it’s a behavior that might have done too much. And what I mean by that is, she’s on the national team and she’s had a pretty tense past with the star players on the team and removing people’s captaincies because of their performance or because they don’t follow her rules, withholding people’s captaincies after an injury saying they’re not national team ready.

And then most recently she had a spate of players, like her most professional and successful players, leave the team. Wendie Renard may be the biggest name of them all, one of the best defenders in the world by all accounts. She said, “I’m out of here. I’m leaving the national team. It’s better for my mental health. I can’t play under the current circumstances or current situation,” I think she said. And then soon after, a striker and a forward, they said, “Yeah, we’re out of here too.” And so I don’t know enough exactly around the things that she’s saying or doing, but I have seen her reaction, and I start to take away some lessons about the importance of a leader making sure that the people they lead are in a position to thrive.

Allison:

Right. And 2 things can exist at the same time. We can still celebrate her history and the things that she’s done really, really well throughout her entire career. And you can also have glorious missteps that have a tremendous impact on people. I mean, these are world’s star, world global athletes, who my guess is probably wouldn’t step down from a job, because it is a job, that they love so much, unless there was a pretty significant impact on the health. And it sounds like that’s what was happening there. And like you said, and like we talk about a lot, leadership, whether you’re a coach of a team or a sporting team or a leader at an organization, leadership is a social process.

And to create that shared experience leaders need, well A, a team of people who are able to function at their best, and that leader needs to provide the environment for people to function at their best. Seems as though she wasn’t necessarily able to do that recently. And like you said, what’s interesting is that a group of players became very, very vocal and some of them ended up leaving. And when I translate that to the workplace, it’s the same. Parallels are the same. Have you ever worked for a company where there were groups of people who left because of a leader?

Ren:

No, not exactly. Probably not.

Allison:

Yeah, I can’t say that I have either. But it is that old cliche that people leave bad leaders, they don’t leave jobs because they go on to find similar work. So people are liking the work, they’re not liking the environment or the leader or what the leader is doing to achieve a goal.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s something I do tell people and participants that I work with, professionals, and it’s something I tell you all listening right now, whether it’s a platitude or not, I think there’s something truth about people quit their bosses, not their job. And I think what we’re seeing is maybe even at the highest reaches in a sport that’s not really traditionally accepting of you quitting your boss, because in sport I think you’re supposed to be tough. It’s really interesting to say, and maybe this connects too to the larger conversation that we had around Naomi Osaka and just mental health and the importance of it.

But when you have some high-caliber athletes, I mean some of the world’s best, putting their foot down and saying, “No más, I’m not going to take this anymore. We’re out of here.” That it does point a finger to what kind of leadership styles persist because I’d say by and large, and I’m curious if you think this is a fair assessment or not, but I’d say historically and maybe vastly, sport coaching is a pretty command and control environment. And by that I say it’s like, do as I say, I tell you what to do. Maybe there’s not a lot of healthy feedback loops. Historically, would you say that’s true?

Allison:

See, I don’t. I disagree. And yeah, that’s interesting, but I’m not a professional athlete, but I did grow up playing sports and I have had incredibly direct coaches, but they lay out expectations. They did, rather, lay out expectations in the same way that a manager would or a leader. This is going to be hard work and this is what I expect of you. Are you on board? Can you do it, right? We’re going to run an hour worth of sprints and then you’re going to run 6 miles. That was my reality, but we knew what was expected of us. So it was hard, and, I don’t think tough means what it used to mean anymore.

Ren:

Well, I think you raised something interesting that I was thinking about just as you were reflecting, that when I say command and control, I don’t mean bad. For those of you listening who this is an unfamiliar term, the easiest idea of command and control you can think of is our armed services, where there’s a pretty clear hierarchy where orders are given and they aren’t challenged. That might be the most, probably like the most simple characterization of it, I’d say, admittedly, Allison. So I do think that, and as you’re reflecting on it, I think there’s something positive around directness. I might even add that this person being directive and outlining expectation is just a sign of a good leader. What I think I’m wondering is, I might say now though, I rarely go around and tell people, give orders, expect people to follow them. I would add a lot of the things that I would consider what you’re talking around is this emotional intelligence, this conversation of value highlighting, expectation setting, but getting a good idea of who you’re talking to and what they care about.

Allison:

So I do think there’s an element of our roles that is not control but command. Here’s the outline of our session that we’re going to do. If you’re the EP, the producer, here’s what we need you to do at this time. It’s pretty direct. Literally at 11:00 AM we need you to do this. At 12, we need you to do this. And I would say, going back to the soccer analogy as well, if you’re, again, it depends on the functioning of your team. We were good, we were functioning very well. Our team captains were the ones who, once we got into the season, not preseason, but once we got into the season, were really the ones who motivated and talked to us about strategy. So there was in a similar way at the workplace, some sort of, I guess hierarchy. And that’s not always a bad thing either, but there was both. There was that command control, directed-ness, emotional intelligence when it called for it, mindset conversations when it called for it. And yeah, I would argue that in our jobs, there are times that we are command and control.

Ren:

Well, actually, I love the delineation that you said. It’s like I certainly command, I don’t know about control. And what I resonated with that is like, okay, maybe there’s some empowerment structures of support in that kind of framework. And maybe that too was atypical in a traditional command and control environment, this idea of empowered decision making. It was like, no, I’m the single person who makes the decisions and let it fall. And I think Corrine Diacre fell victim to a pattern of behavior that paid off 10 years ago, 12 years ago, 14 years ago. And especially when she played. I bet there’s moments where she went home to talk to her significant other, said to them, “These players are just too weak. They don’t understand what I had to go through.” I mean, I could just imagine what so many leaders who fought a different fight talk about. And when I read about some of her behavior, just not letting players, being really strict about the kind of socks players wore, or the kind of music they are allowed to enjoy. And then the way she would snub them in public.

And I think we all know public criticism is just a big no-no, but to publicly lambast, give feedback to, not just a room of people, but to millions of viewers to say, “So-and-so didn’t listen to me, and that’s why we lost.” That’s all weird, bad behavior. But it seems she was just holding on so tight, like a white-knuckle grip to what was, and then 3 of the world’s best players say, “No thanks, I’m out of here.” Then the French Football Commission Federation says, “Emergency panel, let’s investigate this. And by the way, she’s out.” Now they’re still looking for a coach. But since then, Wendie Renard said she’s coming back. And so they fired her in hopes that the player would return, and now she’s on the back. So it seems like getting rid of the leader is making a difference. And that’s something that I really want to talk more about.

Allison:

It highlights for me 2 things that leaders really have to know how to do, is understand the difference between intention and impact. Because she’s saying that she’s the victim here. I’m sure she didn’t mean to. Most people are well intended. Most people think they’re doing the right … most people, I guess I don’t know that for sure, but most people are well intended. And if she was drawing from her own experience, like you said, times have changed. And if you don’t change, you die. That’s the old saying. You have to be able to adapt to new ways of behaving, new cultures that are being demanded at the workplace. And all of this is changing right now at the workplace, by the way. And I would imagine in the coaching sphere as well. And if you can’t adapt, then you’re not probably going to have a job as one of the greatest leaders of a soccer organization in the world. And I can understand that your fight was different. My parents’ fight was different, and I can validate that. And I’m sorry you went through that, and we need something different now.

Ren:

And I don’t know if Corrine … rather, Diacre, sorry, I’m on a first name basis with her. We have croissant on the weekend. I don’t know if Diacre did say those things. I was just saying I’ve seen leaders kind of say “back in my day,” that kind of sentiment. But yeah, it is interesting when we start to think about that intent and impact. And more and more I think one of my favorite conversations to have with leaders that come through our programs is this idea of intent and impact. Intent meaning what you meant to do, impact meaning how it showed up for other people. And especially in the context of this idea of meeting people where they’re at, but then as a leader ever hoping to say, “Well, the only reason this didn’t work is because they didn’t get on board.” I think those times are gone. If anything’s shifting, maybe less around the command and control, but the idea that a leader can point to them and say they are the problem, that’s not holding water anymore.

Allison:

No, it’s a leader’s responsibility to have those conversations. If your people aren’t performing, then you need to be able to coach them and motivate them, see the big picture, have performance conversations that are sometimes hard. And all of that’s in part what is essential to team functioning, among some other things, of course. But we know that’s part of it. And in our last couple of episodes, we talked about workplace trends for 2023, I believe that was our January episode. And one of those is employee wellbeing. And that was driven by a lot of things. One of them was the Great Resignation, which put organizations into a scramble trying to increase focus on self-care and profitability, because millions of people were leaving their jobs.

And what our research and the research of others has found is that, when employees have a sense of wellbeing, they’re more engaged, they’re more creative, they perform much better, have higher job satisfaction and productivity levels, and so on. So it really is a leader’s role to create that environment for people. And like you said, we know that belittling people, all the things that you and I both experienced, that’s not a), what people want in the workplace, and b), that’s not what’s going to make them thrive, or the organization either.

Ren:

And part of it for me boils down to personal accountability, because I have leaders who I’ve had this conversation with, and they’ll look at me and they’ll say, “Ren, you don’t understand. These people just aren’t getting it. They’re not pulling the weight. I’m sure you’ve heard this, but as every generation has always heard, they’re lazy, they don’t want to work, they don’t care about work.” And the most legitimate thing I can offer up to anyone who’s feeling that is, even if that’s true, here’s the truth. You’re the one who’s going to be held accountable, especially the higher the performers are in your organization, the less likely that they’re going to get rid of them for you. I mean, I think we’re all replaceable. Let’s not get too twisted about that. But when I think about this instance, there’s only one world’s best defense person in soccer. There’s a butt ton of coaches. And I bet there was a quick calculus that the organization did and said, “Listen here, we can’t get these 3 players back, but we could find someone to coach the team.”

Allison:

And I would imagine if there was an investigation at the Federation level, they were likely thinking about lawsuits as well, would be my guess. I don’t know that for a fact, but there’s a lot that goes into that because her behavior probably falls under the umbrella of hostile, creating a hostile environment, which again, I don’t know too much about the Soccer Federation, but I do know at the workplace that is a very big deal. And those investigations I’ve had, I almost said the luxury, but it’s definitely not a luxury. I’ve definitely had the experience, I’ve had the experience of sitting in as an unbiased witness on a couple of workplace investigations, and it’s very, very hard to prove … it’s very hard to prove these things. So for them to put the stamp on it, tells me, at least as someone who’s, again, no experience in the Soccer Federation but at the workplace, tells me that she must have done some things that are not great.

Ren:

Well, as you’re reflecting there, I wonder, proof or not, would it have mattered if the team was less effective, if the players were less high profile? ‘Cause I feel like you and I lament more often than not about leaders who take advantage of their power and aren’t really punished to this extent. So I wonder if it’s, does the punishment match the crime or does the punishment match the level of the participant involved?

Allison:

It’s probably all of the above, don’t you think? I mean, if it’s impacting the team so much that your stars are leaving, and even if the Federation looks at it simply from a win/loss mentality, that’s not what they want. So again, different goals. Haha. See what I did there. Different goals for the Soccer Federation. Unintended pun. But seriously, different mission, different strategy than workplaces. But at the end of the day, what they’re trying to do is win; that’s what they’re trying to do. So like you mentioned, there’s of course going to be times when we as leaders, and you all as leaders, need to have those tough conversations and give constructive feedback. Sometimes we need to be very direct. Sometimes we hire the wrong people. These things happen.

But you mentioned a couple of different words, like lazy, they just don’t care. You mentioned earlier, strong personality. I would encourage anyone who’s listening to get really clear about what you mean, because what does lazy mean? How do you know? How do you know that they’re being lazy? And if the behavior that you’re seeing is that they’re not getting their work done, that’s what you need to talk about. It’s good practice not to use judgment words when you’re having those types of tough conversations.

Ren:

And the reality is, I think tough conversations is one of the many tools in the toolbox that is proof that you’re really only as good as your ability to lift those around you. Especially from a leadership role. You’re brought into that space to elevate the role and everyone around you and help the company. I mean, I was just on a call today with someone talking about people who are battle tested. They’ve proven themselves as individuals. They’re really, really good at their jobs. Congratulations, you’re getting your promotion. And now they’re like, great, also, I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. I’m good at this other thing, not this new thing.

And I think, as a leader, what this story highlights for me is that less and less can we rely on the idea that it’s someone else’s problem. Even if a learner won’t get it or someone pushes back on the process, you said something really interesting too. Sometimes we hire the wrong person. So there’s got to be an admission of, I think, vulnerability and acceptance that if I hired the wrong person, then I have to find the right person. And if this is the right person, then I’ve got to help them be the best version of that person that they can be.

Allison:

And it comes down to having those objective conversations too. And if you hired the wrong person, you don’t even have to admit that to anyone but yourself so long as you, like you said, are taking personal responsibility to find a way to either help that person become the right person for the job or have some sort of performance conversations that might lead to another outcome.

Ren:

I love the idea of this private thought management, ’cause I’m a big fan of it, that a lot of people struggle with this notion of being vulnerable and admitting fault, but what an interesting frame. You don’t actually have to, at the outset of amending your solution. Now, I’m not suggesting anyone listening to run from admission of a fault. In fact, what we talk about often in building trust with people is your willingness to admit fault, is actually you’re seen as more effective, as easier to work with. But too, as you’re working to amend something, I often tell leaders like the whole “save your ‘sorrys’ for something major.” Thank people. You might have seen people like the LinkedIn posts. Replace every sorry you put in an email this week, folks, with thank you. And see how it goes and see if it liberates you. But this idea in this space, like hey, a wrong hire, okay, how do I learn? How do I amend? If someone says, “Hey, wrong hire, right Ren?” I’d say, “Yeah, missed that one, but we’re fixing it.”

I mean, it’s okay to admit it, but I think to work, don’t let this idea of a fear of admission of failure stop you from doing the right thing. And maybe that’s what the federation’s saying now. Like I said in the outset, Diacre’s an icon. She’s a woman, no less. She was fired in International Women’s Month, days before International Women’s Day. I wonder if there was a conversation in that room around the optics.

Allison:

Yeah, I mean …

Ren:

But then do you do the right thing? It’s an interesting … I don’t know. I have no idea.

Allison:

I think the fact that it’s International Women’s Month and it was days before is irrelevant because the impact, again, it goes back to impact. The impact that she was having was tremendous. And can you imagine being some of those players and hearing, “We’re not going to get rid of her right now because it’s International Women’s Month.” Well, we’re all women too, so … what? That doesn’t add up. Yeah. And I think, to your point, one of the best entryways into being comfortable with being vulnerable is exactly what you just mentioned, Ren, is being able to admit it to yourself. And it works. It works for a lot of people that I work with and coach to ask yourself, how do I know? I hired the wrong person, how do I know that? Because that’s where it will keep you objective. I know that because in their last presentation, they missed the boat on X, Y, and Z. So being able to get very granular and detailed will actually help you to have those conversations. It’s the avoidance of all of that that puts you in a really tough place.

Ren:

All right, hearing that steady drumbeat around the clarity of expectation, but I’m loving this behavioral focus, and I was just thinking, okay, whomever is next to helm the ship, you got a really clear opportunity to ask specifically, “Hey, Wendie. Hey, other players. Behaviorally, what was it?” Because I doubt it was the socks. “She wouldn’t let me wear my favorite socks.” Someone, you can get over that if the coach’s got a reason for it or tells you why, or gets you invested in the process like your coaches. Directive, but inclusive. So you’ve got to ask as a new person or any leader out there, since you know you’re on the block. Especially, the better your team is, the less likely they’re going to get rid of the better team than they’re going to get rid of you. So you’ve got to take accountability for that and say, “Hey, what things were working; what wasn’t?”

And then if they go, “It was just a vibe.” I’m like, “Great. What was the vibe?” You don’t accept generalities as a reason. Because again, if someone says, “Hey, Ren, it’s not happening. What’s going on there?” You’d be like, “Oh, they told me the vibe wasn’t on, so I tried to shift the vibe.” That’s not going to work. They’re going to say, “Sorry, Ren, you’re out of here. Let’s find a new coach. Let’s find a new boss.” And in the very least, if you can articulate an expectation, then you’ve got kind of like some CYA going on. Everyone’s clear on what’s been asked for. So if someone does come calling about what’s not working, you can say, well, we set these expectations and we’re not doing it because of X, Y, or Z; or we haven’t yet implemented this, which will change how we’re performing.

Allison:

You’re making me think of a conversation I had with a client last week, which was, and they said, and I quote, “I inherited a mess.” Have you ever heard that from any clients?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Yeah. This is, it’s common. “I inherited, this team was so beat down, or the former leader was totally unorganized.” Whatever it may be, it is your responsibility as a leader to do all the things that Ren just said and … ask for feedback. And when you’re given that feedback, to not take it personally. So if you do the expectation setting and then a player comes to you or somebody at your workplace comes to you and says, “Hey, here’s how that landed with me, and it was a negative outcome,” take a moment to think about it. Resist the temptation to become defensive. Again, it’s the intention and impact. If I hit a golf ball and it whacks you in the face, of course I wasn’t intending to, but if you broke a bone, then it’s important for me to tend to that versus me talking to you about what I intended to do. Of course I didn’t intend to. People know that. So it’s important to focus on the impact.

Ren:

And then I think, too, as you’re having those conversations, it’s okay to be human. You’re allowed to have an adverse reaction to something that you don’t like to hear about yourself. I’m criminal for not wanting feedback about things. I don’t ask questions for things I don’t want to hear the answer to. But I think maybe if you’re at all like that, listeners or leader, there’s probably space for you to look at the person you’re talking to and saying, “I’m here. I want to be better. I want to get feedback. I’m a human being too, and I’m not perfect. I might hear something that I don’t like. This is a stretch for me. I don’t usually do this. I’m trying. This is proof of me being better. And I might have to take a moment.”

I think, and it goes back to what you said around the expectation setting and creating an environment where we can be honest with each other and even honest as a boss or a manager or a leader saying, “I am a human too, and this is going to be an interesting experience for both of us. I’m keen to hear your feedback. And if it’s painful feedback, it might sting for a bit, but then I’ll use it.”

Allison:

I saw a funny meme just the other day that said, it was a boss speaking to his or her direct reports and saying, “I welcome your feedback so long as it’s a compliment about me.” It was funny. So it’s a brave thing to do, to ask for feedback in a situation where there’s a possibility that it might not be positive, maybe it will be, but a possibility that it’s not going to be great. And self-regulation is what you make me think of too, is being able to say, “Okay, I need to take a minute. Thank you for your feedback. Let me just take a minute on that,” or whatever it is that you need to do. People will follow you as a leader as well. And that actually will likely translate and be contagious to how the people you manage behave as well. And their ability to give and receive feedback; that self-regulation is so important.

Ren:

Well, and something that you just said there is just a reminder that accountability is high, I think, on those leadership roles, because impact is high. I think a single individual like this has the ability to help a football team be better than sum of their parts. A leader that we care about, that cares about us, has an ability to get more energy, more discretionary effort out of the 8 hours or 12 hours that we put into a workday. And it’s these people who can unlock in us a little bit more. And it’s amazing to think then about, well, if I model certain behaviors, even behaviors of vulnerability or imperfection, and then others around me start to do the same, do we create an environment where we fail fast, where we are not mean to each other, where we want to come to work because we’re not afraid to come to work?

I mean, I think the data would say, and we might say, yeah, that’s some of the outcomes that you can expect. So it’s just so interesting for someone to maybe no longer hide behind the veil of, well, why don’t they just do what I tell them to? It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you inherited a crap team. If they didn’t get rid of the team last time because it was a crap team, what makes you think they’re going to get rid of them again, new person? They just hired you. They’re going to get rid of you too. And I know being part of a crap team, that’s tough. I’m not trying to make it sound easy out there for anybody. But it is that truth that, okay, good. Catalog that, say it out loud, tell someone in your family, then get to work. You’ve got to fix it. And this new football coach for France’s National team, same thing’s going to be on there. They’re going to expect some changes.

Allison:

Right, and yeah. So I think, too, what you’re alluding to is for organizations to get ahead of this, to start to think about how they can create a culture of wellbeing. And what we found in our research is that that would include that people know their purpose. There’s an ability to growth, for growth, rather, and it probably includes having some of those conversations you mentioned. That there’s a focus on health, agency, people have choices, connection, and resilience. And culture change can take time. However, when leaders can focus on those 6 things, they’re prioritizing not only wellbeing for their teams, but for themselves as well. And predictions, workplace predictions for this year are that this is what’s going to make employees stay, so your turnover’s going to decrease. This is what will make people more effective, happier, more engaged, innovative, and so on and so forth. So it’s a good time and place to start looking at those things to get ahead of that trend.

Ren:

Yeah, I think as we maybe cast a vision to kind of what’s happening next, what I’m most interested in seeing is … I want to see how they perform. They got a new coach. They haven’t had a new coach in a long time. So coaching a new team is difficult anyway when you’ve had a long-tenured coach. I want to see, does it make a difference? Does their mental wellbeing and their general environment improve? I’m really curious to see if coaching changes at all. Will we see more of this Zen-style coaching? Do you know Pete Carroll, the coach of the Seahawks?

Allison:

I know of him, yes.

Ren:

Yes. Know of him. You don’t know him personally.

Allison:

Not yet.

Ren:

You don’t breakfast with him and me and Corrine? Well, I guess he’s kind of famed, most recently, as the most, kind of, Zen coach where he’s all about clean food, clean mind, clean diet, clean space. He’s a fun guy. And so is that the trend or is that going to persist? So I wonder then what other players will come back. And so I’m most interested to see, though, is how are they going to perform? And will this make a difference?

Allison:

And I am too, because again, we don’t know the nitty-gritty details of what happened and the assessment of people’s mental health. But if I look at this organizational parallel here, when employees have burnout, for example, which is different, but let’s just humor me here. If an employee is burned out, it can take years to recover from that. So even if you are the best coach in the world, or the best leader in the world, and you come in, your people are going to have a different set of needs. And you might need to be very patient. You probably will need to be very, very patient, ask a lot of questions. Some of the best leaders I know are heavier on the question side, especially when there’s some bruised people.

Ren:

Yeah, I agree. Did we do it? Are we taking away now?

Allison:

Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot that we can take away, but I guess, Ren, if you were talking to a new manager of somebody who’s inherited a team that’s been put through the wringer, what’s one thing that you would tell them to do?

Ren:

Yes. Number one is manage the polarity of the truth of your circumstances. Like, yes, you’re a new manager. Yes, you’ve got a team who’s been put through it. Yes, the job is hard and the people are upset, and it might be unfair. All of those things can be true. And then the other side of that polarity is … and you’ve got to get to work. And so as soon as you can, recognize your personal accountability and what you can do to change your circumstances, because I think, leader, if you’re ever going to wait for someone else to change your circumstances, or especially if someone’s coming for you and then you point to some other people and be like, “No, no, no, it’s their fault the circumstances haven’t changed,” I promise you, you’re going to be pointing all the way out of the door when they see you later. So I would say recognize the truth that yes, sometimes it’s unfair and it sucks. And then personal accountability, get to work. Do what you can do, because you have to.

Allison:

Yeah, and I agree with everything that you said, and I’ll add, at the workplace, one thing you can do today, regardless of your team and how long they’ve been under your leadership, and regardless of the theme or the mentality of that team, one thing that you can do today is help them to connect their work to purpose. When employees feel that there’s value and meaning behind their work, they’re much more likely to feel a sense of purpose. And if you are a leader, you can encourage your teammates to think about what makes work meaningful for them. Ask them, “What brought you energy last week, and what’s frustrating for you?” Those 2 questions can be really, really helpful so that you as the leader have a better understanding of what’s happening in their world.

And so, as always, Ren, this was a great conversation. Perhaps we’ll have to do a follow-up after the summer and see how the team does, see how the soccer team does, the football team rather, and come back to it, under new leadership. So thanks again for the conversation. And to our listeners, as always, you can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. A special thank you to Emily and Ryan who work behind the scenes to make sure that our podcast happens.

Ren:

Yes, thank you.

Allison:

And to our listeners, find us on LinkedIn. Tell us what you think.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

Tell us what you want us to talk about, and we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everybody. See you next time. Find Allison on TikTok.