Content About Trust & Psychological Safety | CCL https://www.ccl.org/categories/trust-psychological-safety/ Leadership Development Drives Results. We Can Prove It. Thu, 08 May 2025 10:54:56 +0000 en-US hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.1 How to Build Belonging at Work https://www.ccl.org/articles/leading-effectively-articles/create-better-culture-build-belonging-at-work/ Fri, 21 Feb 2025 23:06:20 +0000 https://www.ccl.org/?post_type=articles&p=58853 Leaders who build belonging in the workplace support more inclusive organizational cultures, paving the way for greater performance, innovation, satisfaction, and persistence through challenges.

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]]> Why Is Belonging in the Workplace Important?

Belonging — the belief that we are connected, supported, and respected — is a basic human need. It’s also a critical component of creating cultures that enable everyone to feel included at work. Belonging in the workplace can pave the way for greater individual and organizational performance, innovation, satisfaction, and persistence through challenges.

Most leaders have a rough idea of what belonging is, but the true importance and value of belonging at work is probably more complex than they might imagine. Beyond just “Do I fit in here?” having a sense of belonging in the workplace involves answering multiple questions, such as:

  • Can I connect with my peers professionally? Socially?
  • Do I trust my peers, supervisors, and leaders?
  • Do I feel like my unique perspective and experiences are valued?
  • Am I able to share my authentic self?
  • Am I free from worries about fitting in?

The Value of Belonging at Work

Research suggests that in the workplace, both belonging and uncertainty about belonging both matter a lot, as they influence everything from job satisfaction and self-esteem to performance and wellbeing.

This is because when everyone consistently feels included and certain that they belong at work, people are more willing to take risks and more comfortable asking for (and giving) help. So part of the value of belonging in the workplace is that it actually helps to encourage more innovation in the organization and fosters innovative mindsets through open communication.

In addition, belonging is linked to increased persistence through challenges, bouncing back after failure, less likelihood to be thrown off by organizational shifts, and reduced employee turnover. For example, in a recent partnership with a leading global automotive organization, our researchers found that employee perceptions of inclusion, belonging uncertainty, and belonging at work were the strongest predictors of turnover intentions, burnout, and work-life balance.

In another study, building connection and belonging with other participants was also highlighted as one of the most valuable outcomes of engaging in leadership development training.

Luckily, research confirms that belonging uncertainty and belonging in the workplace can both be influenced by organizations and their leaders.

By intentionally working to decrease uncertainty around belonging, leaders invite employees to set aside worries, concerns, or stress. Then they no longer have to expend as much energy wondering if they belong at work, and they’re free to contribute to business objectives in a meaningful, productive, and fulfilling way.

To start talking about the importance of building belonging at your workplace, download our free conversation guide and have a discussion with your team.

The Impact of Uncertainty About Belonging in the Workplace

Belonging & Belonging Uncertainty: 2 Sides of the Same Coin

We often talk about belonging as a single concept of feeling that you fit in. However, feeling as if you belong is only one side of the coin.

Before we can fully understand the value of belonging — and particularly the importance of belonging in the workplace — we must first understand the other side of the coin: a term known as “belonging uncertainty.”

People experience belonging uncertainty when they aren’t consistently sure whether they fit in at work. This vacillating sense of security can arise from feeling different from others around you, either in appearance or cultural experiences. Belonging uncertainty is especially common if employees come from a background that is different from everyone else on the team.

These individuals may worry about being treated negatively based on stereotypes, or perceive subtle messages about who can (and can’t) be successful at work, causing them to feel less welcome and experience belonging uncertainty. Other team members who do not perceive such messages or feel such burdens do not experience belonging uncertainty.

Belonging uncertainty often leads people to hide aspects of themselves, or not put their whole selves out there. That makes it tricky to detect. But a key indicator is when someone seems hesitant to participate. When that happens, leaders have a clue that the environment might not feel very welcoming to someone on the team.

As leaders, it’s our responsibility to help lift everyone in the entire organization, however and wherever we can. Without intentional support, employees experiencing belonging uncertainty may feel almost as if they’re carrying around a heavy backpack, weighing them down and causing them to struggle to engage fully, think creatively, or bring their full selves to work.

The concerns that arise from belonging uncertainty can also cause people to interpret neutral events negatively. For example, imagine that 2 employees give a big presentation at a quarterly meeting, and neither receives any applause when they finish.

  • An employee with low belonging uncertainty may not really notice or, if they do, attribute the lack of applause to an audience eager to get to the next break.
  • An employee who does experience belonging uncertainty might jump to conclusions, interpreting the silence as feedback that their presentation was confusing or poorly received. They might even tell themselves they’re not cut out for their job or the organization.

Even if the second employee is able to counter those negative thoughts with positive self-talk, the mental energy involved in processing those thoughts and questioning themselves is a burden they face, on top of their work responsibilities and the stress of giving a big presentation.

For leaders, if one person on the team feels they’re carrying around a heavy backpack, while another is not so weighed down, it’s going to be much easier for the second employee to tackle their work challenges than the first. This is why leaders should work to understand belonging uncertainty and how the workplace feels to everyone on the team, providing additional support for those who need it.

How to Create a Sense of Belonging in the Workplace

3 Tips for Leaders

3 Tips for Leaders to Create a Sense of Belonging in the Workplace Infographic

Here’s the good news for leaders looking for advice on how to build belonging in the workplace: Your efforts don’t have to involve big or expensive gestures. Leaders can incorporate the following actions into everyday work life to counteract belonging uncertainty and instill a culture of belonging at work.

For maximum impact, know that the most powerful experiences involve fostering all elements of belonging: connecting with peers, building trust, valuing all employees’ unique voices, and decreasing belonging uncertainty.

1. Create intentional opportunities for connection.

Consistency is key. When trying to foster belonging at work, most organizations begin with creating opportunities for employees to connect. Many of us have attended a company pizza party or team mixer as an opportunity to meet people and build relationships. While that’s a start, leaders can make those experiences more potent by prioritizing consistent, ongoing opportunities for connection over one grandiose but infrequent event.

Being able to connect with colleagues twice a month is more impactful than a large, once-yearly occasion, even if the opportunities are small, because it serves as a booster for belonging at work. Whether reserving time at the beginning of meetings for team members to share something about themselves or facilitating cross-group coffee chats, creating space for people to connect with peers in a meaningful way on a regular basis is a promising way to support a sense of belonging.

Leaders can also build trust, an important element of belonging, by creating both social and professional opportunities to connect. Offering opportunities to share hobbies or personally held customs encourages employees to bring all parts of themselves to work, and begins to build a foundation of trust. Organizations might offer voluntary Employee Resource Groups to create spaces for connection, for example.

  • TIP: Build small, ongoing opportunities for connection into your team or organizational culture. If you consistently focus on building leadership trust and create time for colleagues to make connections with one another, the impact compounds over time. You might set aside a few minutes to express gratitude publicly at the start of every team or department meeting, and create space for others to do the same. Or you might ask colleagues to bring questions as icebreaker activities, or set aside time to share wins and give kudos to teammates. Regardless, finding a sustainable way for employees to connect with each other authentically and consistently is key.

2. Flip the script on uncertainty and failure.

Normalize making mistakes. When people lack a sense of belonging, it can be an isolating experience. Akin to dealing with imposter syndrome, belonging uncertainty causes employees who feel they don’t belong to think they are the only ones experiencing those thoughts.

But in fact, most of us — at some point in our careers — have questioned ourselves and our abilities. When colleagues are willing to share their own uncertainties or even failures publicly, they normalize the feeling and help take away its power. This message can be particularly effective when it comes from colleagues further along in their careers. It can be powerful when a senior leader tells a younger manager their challenges and how they overcame them. Others have the same doubts, and it can be helpful to realize that they’re not alone in their worries and that their concerns might dissipate over time.

You might even consider keeping and sharing with colleagues “a resume of failures,” following in the footsteps of the story about a Princeton professor who created a CV of missteps. Rather than bulleting your accomplishments, list every job you didn’t get, every grant that wasn’t funded, and every idea that was rejected. The resume of failures will likely be much more extensive than your real resume — and more beneficial, too. Failures might have initially reinforced a sense that you don’t belong, but often upon reflection, we realize that we learned more from our failures than our successes. By typing them out and sharing them with your team or newer colleagues, you can reinforce the reality that everyone has to overcome hurdles — and that falling short of expectations doesn’t mean someone doesn’t belong in a role or doesn’t have what it takes. It means they have an opportunity to learn and develop.

  • TIP: Normalize failure and frame uncertainty as common and temporary. Encourage a culture where employees can speak openly about handling stress, uncertainty, or setbacks. Encourage senior leaders to help bust myths around mistakes by reinforcing that failure is transient and to be expected. Model open and candid sharing of lessons learned, because that signals a willingness to make yourself vulnerable and encourages innovation, rather than sabotages it.
  • TIP: Explore mentoring as a way to provide support during transition points. During times of transition, like onboarding, promotion, and new managerial responsibilities, could senior members of the team help reinforce and support other members? For example, if a new person joins the group or if someone is promoted, invite a more senior colleague to step in to share his or her experiences with the new manager. Coaching and mentoring programs can be used to develop new leaders, not only helping to support and onboard them, but also enabling both parties to benefit from mutual trust-building and an enhanced culture of belonging at work.

3. Show humility by not assuming others’ experiences.

Create opportunities for others to share. Leaders who consistently create space for connection and share their own self-doubts are more likely to have employees who feel psychologically safe at work, and subsequently are more comfortable sharing their experiences with belonging and belonging uncertainty. This is particularly important for employees who are most often overlooked and underestimated.

Power dynamics can often come into place in group settings, with those who hold more senior positions or privileged social identities taking up the most “airtime” in meetings. For example, one Catalyst study found that 1 in 5 women leaders feel overlooked or ignored during group video calls. Individuals from historically underestimated groups often report similar experiences.

Break the mold by scaffolding opportunities for all employees to share openly and honestly with you. When they do, remain open and choose your words wisely. What may seem innocuous to you doesn’t always seem that way to others. For example, if someone on your team opens up to you, and you respond with, “Oh, I know exactly how you feel!” you may think that you’re showing empathy, but that could come across as failing to acknowledge their personal experiences.

Everyone has their own lived experiences, so it’s important that leaders not downplay or invalidate others. Here is where a well-placed silence can be powerful. Don’t cut off potential sharing by moving on to another topic too soon.

Also, be mindful to not push employees to share their personal lives with you. Your job is simply to provide the space, not force anyone to share. Finally, discourage employees from speaking for others by asking everyone to focus on their own experiences. Give people a platform to share their own experiences and perspectives, so others don’t end up talking for them and the whole team can learn valuable lessons.

  • TIP: Don’t assume you have the answers. Compassionate leadership starts with listening, and leaders sometimes make false assumptions about employees they don’t hear from, relate to, or understand. Instead of jumping to the conclusion that someone is “just shy,” for example, consider other explanations. Foster a trusting relationship over time, so employees can feel comfortable opening up at their own pace. Build an organization that values different perspectives by modeling (and training your team in) inclusive leadership practices and active listening skills. Particular things to practice include listening for understanding, remaining present in the moment, withholding judgement, and speaking less to hear more.

Better Leaders Focus on Building Belonging at Work

Leading with a focus on building belonging at work requires humility and bravery. Without a focus on equipping leaders and teams with the knowledge about how to create a sense of belonging in the workplace, organizations will never be as strong or productive as they could be.

At CCL, we believe in equipping leaders to cultivate organizational cultures that truly support everyone in the organization — ensuring people are better than just okay. We’ve created a downloadable collection of leadership resources on compassion, wellbeing, and belonging with actionable tips gleaned from our research.

The bottom line: belonging in the workplace is about more than just fitting in. True belonging is built on a strong foundation of trust, connection, and freedom from uncertainty. Fostering a sense of belonging at work acknowledges that everyone brings value through their different experiences and perspectives, and that some individuals might also be burdened with concerns. It’s a critical component of employee wellbeing, too, because when leaders consistently commit to fostering belonging at work, individuals and organizations thrive.

Ready to Take the Next Step?

Take a meaningful step toward increasing belonging at your workplace by starting a conversation with colleagues on your team or at your organization. Download Our Belonging at Work Conversation Guide now.

Download the Belonging at Work Conversation Guide Now

Get our complimentary resource for (better) leadership today for help facilitating a productive conversation with your team on what belonging looks like at your organization.

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]]> Tim Davisson https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/tim-davisson/ Mon, 17 Feb 2025 16:01:59 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62459 The post Tim Davisson appeared first on CCL.

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]]> Better Conversations Every Day Participant https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/better-conversations-every-day-participant-4/ Mon, 17 Feb 2025 15:57:13 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62458 The post Better Conversations Every Day Participant appeared first on CCL.

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]]> Better Conversations Every Day Participant https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/better-conversations-every-day-participant-3/ Mon, 17 Feb 2025 15:55:24 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62457 The post Better Conversations Every Day Participant appeared first on CCL.

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]]> Cindy Endsley https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/cindy-endsley/ Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:22:28 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62299 The post Cindy Endsley appeared first on CCL.

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]]> Michael Broadwater https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/michael-broadwater/ Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:21:14 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62298 The post Michael Broadwater appeared first on CCL.

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]]> Billy Smith https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/billy-smith/ Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:19:54 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62296 The post Billy Smith appeared first on CCL.

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]]> Dave Axner https://www.ccl.org/testimonials/dave-axner/ Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:18:38 +0000 https://ccl2020stg.ccl.org/?post_type=testimonial&p=62295 The post Dave Axner appeared first on CCL.

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]]> What Is Inclusion in the Workplace? A Guide for Leaders https://www.ccl.org/articles/leading-effectively-articles/what-is-inclusion-in-the-workplace-a-guide-for-leaders/ Thu, 23 Jan 2025 13:35:39 +0000 https://www.ccl.org/?post_type=articles&p=59281 Inclusion is vital to your organization’s success. Use these 5 steps to build an inclusive work culture for your organization, and learn what things to watch out for.

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]]> Defining & Creating a Work Culture That Includes Everyone

Inclusion is when everyone feels welcomed, respected, and valued. It’s a common part of organizational mission statements. But it’s also a profoundly personal experience.

We’ve all experienced what inclusion is by sensing more — or less — of it at some point in our lives. From an early age, we can feel included by being part of a loving and accepting family. Or, we can feel inclusion in the workplace, such as when a manager involves us in team decisions.

But if we don’t feel included, we may question whether we’re respected and accepted. That’s why inclusion requires far more than words alone. It requires a commitment to the full participation of, and investment in, every individual in the group.

Whether most people at your organization are logging onto virtual meetings or stepping into physical offices, having a workplace where everyone belongs is vital to your collective success. It shapes how people see themselves, others, and the culture around them. And it has a direct impact on your organization’s ability to deliver on its mission and grow the bottom line.

What Does Inclusion Mean in the Workplace?

An inclusive workplace is one where employees feel valued, involved, and respected for the viewpoints, ideas, perspectives, and experiences they bring. In an inclusive work culture, employees know they’re an integral part of the organization, and believe that differences in backgrounds and life experiences are a strength, not a weakness.

Ultimately, inclusion in the workplace means creating an environment where employees can show up fully, without feeling they must hide or minimize any part of themselves.

In an inclusive work culture, you won’t see everyone sharing everything. The goal is that employees can share parts of themselves or their lives without fear of retaliation — if they want to.

But passive acceptance isn’t sufficient. Organizations must work to actively build inclusive workplaces — or risk the consequences.

Why Is an Inclusive Workplace Important?

Employee perceptions of inclusion in the workplace can be one of the key predictors of employee engagement, turnover intentions, and burnout. In our survey of more than 2,500 employees at a global company, those who perceived a more inclusive workplace reported healthier work boundaries, lower levels of burnout, and were less likely to say they were looking for other jobs, as we shared in Chief Learning Officer.

But perceptions of how inclusive your workplace is can vary greatly across employee groups. As just one example, in the organization we surveyed, hourly employees reported lower levels of inclusion than their salaried coworkers, as did individual contributors versus those in management or executive roles. Even for employees with similar backgrounds and experiences, there was a range of perceptions. These findings underscore that workplace inclusion looks and feels very different, depending on who you are and where you sit in the organization.

Taken together, this and other research indicates that inclusion in the workplace is essential for supporting a happy, engaged, and committed workforce. As organizations race to attract and retain talent, investing in creating a truly inclusive work culture can be a major differentiator.

Importantly, inclusion in the workplace requires action. Even if you consider your organization to be inclusive, your employees cannot always see your good intentions. Failing to take meaningful action can limit the positive impact of your goals for an inclusive work culture and strain credibility with your workforce. For example:

  • Your organization could say that it supports parents, families, caregiving and leadership. But if flexible work options are limited, leave policies are meager, and no lactation rooms are offered, the idea may seem disingenuous to your employees.
  • Your organization may say it welcomes and supports employees of different religious or cultural backgrounds. But if you don’t provide workers with the option to take floating holidays, it’s difficult for them to celebrate important cultural or holy days, regardless of their heritage or beliefs.

That’s why organizations that are serious about inclusion take time to understand the specific opportunities they have to support others within their unique culture and context, and don’t simply duplicate initiatives that seemed effective in other organizations. They choose strategic actions that will drive the desired results and invest in training their people in inclusive leadership practices — recognizing that because of how structural inclusion in the workplace can be, leaders play a critical role in moving it forward.

Organizations that don’t focus on inclusion and belonging can risk being left behind, as people leave in search of companies that are more inviting and share their values.

How to Create an Inclusive Work Culture

5 Keys for Leaders

Don’t know where to start to build more inclusion in the workplace? Here are a few specific strategies leaders can use to foster a more inclusive work culture.

1. Foster meaningful and authentic participation.

There’s a world of difference between being invited into a conversation and being able to influence the outcome. As a leader, it’s important you actively seek out a range of perspectives across age, cultural backgrounds, departments, geographic locations, and leader levels whenever you’re making strategic decisions or developing new processes. It’s even more important to allow input from these employees to meaningfully impact your decisions.

Employees can only fully participate if their work environment makes it possible. Be sure to build psychological safety at work so employees feel a sense of ownership of their work and freedom to express their thoughts, ideas, and concerns. This is particularly important for empowering next-generation leaders, so they feel included in decision-making, feel heard, and can make a positive impact. Employees should feel like they have agency over their decisions to share — a concept known as employee voice. Our research underscores the importance of managers supporting employee voices and helping people feel heard by taking action and by providing explanations.

2. Invest in your employees.

Our research also suggests that leadership development opportunities can support employees in many ways, from boosting confidence and preparedness to strengthening connections and overall effectiveness. Development opportunities can also make employees feel more included and cared for at your organization.

Consider providing leaders with psychological safety training so they understand how to create space for different backgrounds and lived experiences than their own. By providing access to opportunities for growth through training programs and mentorship for newer employees, you can help your workforce learn new skills and demonstrate a commitment to their development.

It’s also important to use the lens of inclusion when you’re determining who is receiving development opportunities. Focusing solely on employees identified as “high potential” is often wrought with bias, and can exclude those who would benefit most from your support. To avoid this, consider how to meaningfully democratize access to leadership development opportunities.

3. Commit to wider representation.

Inclusion in the workplace goes beyond your current employees. It involves your future workforce, too. To build a workplace where everyone belongs, you need recruiting practices in line with your mission and goals.

Once hired, new employees should be made to feel as included as possible as they become familiar with your organization. New employees often experience barriers around differences in their work arrangements, rank, demographics, or location. By spanning those boundaries, and opening up collaboration, you’ll ideally have more diverse representation in your day-to-day operations.

4. Be intentional in your communications and actions.

An inclusive work culture takes time to build — but can be damaged in a single moment. That’s why leaders need to keep their mission and culture top of mind, especially during times of change. Communication with employees is a key factor in supporting an inclusive work culture, but some forms of communication are better than others.

Set expectations early for open and respectful communication, and ensure leaders have access to tools, resources, training, and support as they improve their ability to identify and mitigate bias, respect differences, manage conflicts, and practice compassionate leadership by asking questions and listening closely to learn more, especially on topics outside their lived experiences.

Organizations that focus on being invitational, accountable, consistent, and purposeful in their communications are likely to be perceived as having more inclusive workplaces. Communication that is both specific and actionable also helps to support workplace inclusion.

5. Remember there’s no one-size-fits-all solution, and you must keep evolving.

In an effort to find quick solutions, it’s easy to think there’s a one-size-fits-all answer to creating a workplace that includes everyone. If an approach works at one organization, then it should work just as well at another. But context matters. After all, what is an inclusive work culture good for if it’s in name only?

In the real world, isolated gestures or rigid ideas about inclusivity break down quickly. That’s because different employees face different experiences or barriers, and because everyone is unique. A policy solely focused on hiring women into more senior positions, for instance, can oversimplify the specific challenges faced by specific women, because women have varying individual experiences. Similarly, offering leadership development training alone won’t address systemic issues with unequal pay or promotion opportunities at your organization. A holistic approach and continual focus on building belonging at work and inclusive work culture is required.

Furthermore, it’s critical to remember that the definition of inclusion — and our understanding of how to foster it — is constantly evolving. In recent years, for example, organizations have had to reckon with new challenges like equipping managers to lead remote teams and adapt to the hybrid workplace.

It’s important to continually review and update your policies and practices, always through the lens of building greater inclusion in the workplace.

How to Repair Damage

Even when they don’t use specific terms, many leaders are interested in creating an inclusive culture at their organization. Inclusive workplaces can help bring out the best in all employees, fostering a climate of innovation and creativity.

And sometimes, creating an inclusive culture can also feel intimidating. Honest mistakes happen. Even with the best of intentions for an inclusive workplace, you or your organization may hurt someone along the way. It’s important to apologize, listen to understand, take action (and check in with others on the impact of those actions), and not give up. Fear of failure can often hold leaders and organizations back.

Avoiding difficult conversations can be far worse than making a mistake and being open to learning and improvement. Trial and error, paired with continuous learning and humility, make things better — and foster more inclusive workplaces.

Ready to Take the Next Step?

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The post What Is Inclusion in the Workplace? A Guide for Leaders appeared first on CCL.

]]> Lead With That: DNA Analysis Ethics and the Importance of Leadership Transparency https://www.ccl.org/podcasts/lead-with-that-dna-analysis-ethics-and-the-importance-of-leadership-transparency/ Fri, 08 Nov 2024 14:35:29 +0000 https://www.ccl.org/?post_type=podcasts&p=61856 In this episode, Ren and Allison discuss the current challenges in the DNA analysis industry and what we can learn about the importance of leadership transparency.

The post Lead With That: DNA Analysis Ethics and the Importance of Leadership Transparency appeared first on CCL.

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  • PODCAST

Lead With That: DNA Analysis Ethics and the Importance of Leadership Transparency

Lead With That CCL Podcast: DNA Analysis Ethics and the Importance of Leadership Transparency

In this episode of Lead With That, Ren and Allison discuss the DNA analysis company 23andMe, and what its challenges mean for consumers in the ever-evolving digital landscape. 23andMe and other organizations in the DNA analysis industry have revolutionized personal genomics and empowered millions of people to gain access to their genetic information. But now that their business and success are faltering, many questions are arising surrounding the collection and use of genetic data.

As the future of this industry becomes more and more uncertain, consumers are wondering what this means for their data and DNA privacy, and how leadership and ethical business practices — or a lack thereof — influence their lives. Especially in our digital world, where it’s almost impossible be a consumer without allowing some companies access to our personal information, what role do transparency and trust play in leadership?

Listen to the Podcast

In this episode, Ren and Allison discuss the recent challenges of the DNA analysis industry and the implications these struggles have for consumers. While the organizations in this industry have provided many with valuable information about their DNA, what responsibility do they have to protect consumer information when things get tough and hard business decisions must be made? Ren and Allison explore what leaders can learn about the importance of transparency and trust from this situation, and lead with that.

Learn More

Interview Transcript

Intro:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast Lead With That, where we talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Today, we’re diving into the world of direct-to-consumer DNA analysis. Companies like 23andMe and Ancestry.com have revolutionized personal genomics, empowering millions to uncover their ancestry and even get a glimpse into their health risks. And some of these pioneers now in genetics who soared to billion-dollar valuations now face some staggering challenges.

Specifically, with the stock value plummeting by 99% and a recent mass board resignation, 23andMe, the one-time genetic giant, is on the precipice of disaster. As 23andMe teeters on the brink of collapse, we’ll explore the implications for the millions of people who entrusted them with their most personal asset, their DNA.

The collection and use of massive genetic data raises urgent questions about privacy, leadership and ethical business practices, and how to navigate the fallout when business models fail. And as the future of these businesses becomes murky, we have to ask, what happens to all that sensitive genetic data of over 15 million customers? What happens to your genetic legacy when a company’s business and leadership falter?

While 23andMe’s product was groundbreaking, a combination of market saturation, privacy concerns, leadership struggles, and an unsustainable business model have led us where we are today. So, stick with us as we unpack the lessons on leadership from this unfolding story, how visionaries in the genetic space revolutionized an industry, and where they may have gone wrong in managing the responsibility that comes with it. Let’s get to it.

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, joined with Allison Barr. Allison, have you ever used a genetic testing service?

Allison:

I’ve only used it for my dog. And I’m going to guess we’re talking about humans here, but I did use it for my dog. And if you had seen my first dog, you would have thought that he was a German shepherd, but we knew he was a mutt. And it came back that he was part Dalmatian, which made me very skeptical of the results. But hey, you never know. So I’ve used it for my dog, but not for myself. What about you?

Ren:

Were you satisfied with the results? You said you were skeptical, but did it work?

Allison:

Yes. Well, it worked because, and don’t judge me, I was much younger, I had to submit proof to the apartment complex that I was applying to live in that I didn’t have —

Ren:

Sure.

Allison:

… a German shepherd or “bully breed.” And I said, “Here you go, he’s part Dalmatian,” which … So yes, I was satisfied for that from that perspective.

Ren:

Well, see, now we’re starting to already get into the scary parts about genetics, like access. Every time I talk about this kind of discussion, I think about the movie Gattaca. Have you seen the movie Gattaca?

Allison:

No, I’ve never seen it.

Ren:

Yeah, see it. Young Ethan Hawke, young Uma Thurman. It’s really just a story about overcoming the limitations that society puts on us, Allison.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

But do you know anyone who’s ever done one of these genetic testing things?

Allison:

Yes, my sister. Uh, now I’m questioning if it was my sister. Somebody in my family did it many years ago. So I suppose what we’re getting at, part of what we’re getting at is, by proxy, I guess my data is out there.

Ren:

Oh that’s interesting. Some of your genetic data, because you’re related to the people, is out there.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. I’ve never used one of these, but when I brought this topic up to Heather — my wife, for those of you who are listening, and I’m trying to make a concerted effort just to call her Heather instead of my wife, because she’s a multifaceted, complex human being — but when I told her about this topic, or we’re talking about 23andMe, and she’s like, “Oh, what about it?” I said, “They’re about to be bankrupt.” And before I could even talk about the topic, she looks at me and it’s like, “What’s going to happen with all that data?” Because it’s like, her, and I think her parents have done it.

And so yeah, I have personally never found the desire, like 23andMe or Ancestry.com, I actually don’t even know what their value propositions are or how they differ, but I think maybe that’s sort of one of the things we’re starting to talk about today.

I think some of this story is rooted in the product and the business. I can’t help but think about Shark Tank, where they always talk about, do you have a product or do you have a business? Even for people who use the service once, I don’t know, if you map my genes, haven’t we won? You’ve mapped my DNA, so we’re finished, aren’t we?

Allison:

Then what? Then what? In theory, as I understand it though, some people have used it to find family members that they’ve lost or didn’t know existed. There are some who say it’s helped them to understand their potential health risks. But to your point, what’s next after that, in terms of what the company offers? I’m not really sure. There’s a lot of different ways that we could take this, I suppose. And I think one thing that you just raised was business or product, and I don’t know how long we want to talk about the CEO of 23andMe, but one of the reasons that the board eventually left the company was because she couldn’t provide a business plan that was either sensical or sustainable. So that’s an interesting question that you raise.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, so Anne Wojcicki, the CEO, facing a lot of criticism over kind of the company’s financial struggles, but her approach. So when 23andMe went public in 2021, its opening price was like $13.32. Then it started to raise by 20% before it dropped down to where it was trading yesterday at 29 cents. I guess I could look. But that’s where that 99% drop comes folks. It’s not hyperbole. It went from 13 —

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

… and plus to less than a dollar. And so her pitch to the board was, “Let me buy you all out. I’m going to make it private. I’ll give you 40 cents a share.” So it opened at 13. While she’s not offering them 30 cents, she’s not offering them much, so people were pretty pissed about that. And I think the board cited concerns about the lack of premium, of course, but also the overall insufficient way to protect the shareholder value. And they don’t know what she’s going to do with the business. So I don’t know. It’s interesting to explore how much of her … Could any CEO save them?

Allison:

I don’t know. I guarantee you there are probably people out there who are incredibly innovative also in that industry who could think of many different ways to sustain customers or have client retention or … It just to me, from the outside looking in, does not look like you’d have any sort of retention or any incentive really for one consumer to come back, right? Even further, your family then doesn’t need to. There’s no incentive for your family, either. So I don’t know. Again, I’m sure there are probably some innovative people out there who could think of many ways that they could add to their product line, so to speak, but I’m not in that business. What do you think?

Ren:

Yeah. As I asked, and I am listening to you talk, I was thinking about that discussion we had once with the grocery stores, like merging, and then cutting off and selling parts of the business. I guess what you just alluded to was that there may not be a family need. Because if you get ancestry in me and I’m your sister, and then I find out where your history’s from, then I now know where mine is, presumably. I don’t need to get it also to know that we have French ancestry. So maybe that’s something like your diversification there. I guess there might be some additional add-ons for the genetic testing and some of the, “Hey, we’re continuing to map XYZ DNA. We’ll update you. Get a subscription service.”

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

But yeah, I guess there might be a CEO who could innovate the business model, but I don’t know if the product, what can change. And that’s what happened with 23andMe, and all of them. At one point, I think … Who knows who got there first? Remember? I think it was just a show on TV where they brought celebrities and they told them where they’re from, and then that kind of evolved into this business model.

But as soon as there were major players in this space, there were many players in this space. You can spit into a tube today for almost any company, and they’ll tell you and what your dog are supposed to be. And so I think maybe the innovation doesn’t come in the product, but the innovation comes in the relationship with the client. And maybe even then, the relationship with other businesses. They’re going to have to have an inorganic growth strategy to make this happen,

Allison:

Sure.

Ren:

… which is to say some of them are going to have to merge and acquire one another, I think.

Allison:

Sure. And I could think of it, too, going many ways. Part of my family is Italian and part of my family is Irish. I could almost see there being some tie to travel. Okay, now that you’ve done this, now you can partner with whoever agency to get a trip to wherever to visit your homeland, so to speak. So yeah, I think to your point, they’re going to have to do something. And there were so many other things that came up for me with this story, too. And I don’t want to take us too far down like a philosophical rabbit hole, so humor me for a minute.

Ren:

No, those are my favorite. Please, let’s dive in.

Allison:

Okay, good. Humor me for a minute. So on the one hand, technology and AI as we know it are moving very quickly, almost to the point where humans can’t keep up with as fast as they’re moving. So on the one hand, I think about data breaches, which happen to any company. So any company is at risk of a data breach. But when you’re talking about genetic information, that’s unchanging. That’s people’s very personal information. It’s not like I could just change my password, and then all of a sudden, the person who hacked no longer has access to my DNA. It’s such a much bigger risk, to me. It’s just interesting. I’ll pause before I take us down the other rabbit hole.

Ren:

Well, I’m just grateful that, I think you alluded to a little bit of it, maybe the world is so far advanced. I don’t know if anyone on the dark web, for instance right now, someone has your, Allison, your Social Security number. I’m convinced of it because they have mine.

Allison:

Oh, sure.

Ren:

Because I am attached to Sony. I’m attached to Experian. They’ve had massive data breaches that have my personal information on it. They’re like, “Change your password so someone can’t use it,” but that stuff exists and is being peddled in a massive file of tens of thousands of other people’s data. So I guess I’m probably glad that, right now, no one can take my genetic information and synthesize a new version of me and make me better and stronger.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Thank God there’s not a black market for cloning science. Though who knows? There might be. But I think I’m grateful that there’s nothing to be done with that. But maybe as we ponder this, it is like, someone has it. Someone’s going to hold onto that database, and I guess leverage the information until we’re societally advanced enough for it to be used. And so I guess maybe … I don’t know if you had a question necessarily so much as, I guess some of the advantage of the fact that we are leaping ahead, technologically, we can collect this data, but what is someone going to do with it? Is a hacker going to … like they would hold my computer hostage? “Hey, if you don’t pay me, I’m going to email your genetic code to your workers.” It’s not like NSFW stuff. It’s like —

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

“I’m going to email this guilty picture of you to your coworkers. I’m going to let everyone know that you have an ABG genetic coding.” They’re like, “Don’t do that to me.”

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

So I don’t know. I guess what are they going to do with it?

Allison:

I don’t know. Right? That’s the question. And I fall in suit with you, where I’m kind of like, okay, well, I already got hacked once and somebody has my social already, and that’s not changing either. My Social Security number is not changing. You do all of the things to protect yourself so that people can’t buy a house or whatever with your social.

So part of me also has a high level of trust that we will catch up to it. And whatever folks are thinking they’re going to do with people’s genetic information, I have a certain level of trust in me that policyholders or whomever will catch up to that so that there is a solution, but I do know that’s one worry that folks have.

So no, I didn’t necessarily have a question, just something to ponder. But the other thing that was top of mind for me just got me thinking about the future of leadership in general and how complex challenges are now and will probably continue to be.

So I’m getting way broader right now, so you can rein me in if you want, but even consumers, too, are going to face challenges that are new that we almost can’t predict necessarily. And I know you and I have talked a little bit about this before, but I do think the degree of complexity for leaders right now is dialed up, and will continue to probably be dialed up, again because technology is just moving faster than our understanding. So what are your thoughts?

Ren:

Well, you used a really important word, trust, and then a couple of things are spinning around in my head right now, especially as a leader and a consumer. I think … And I was about to say, never more in history has your education been more important about what you consume or what you lead, but I don’t know if that’s true. If you were in the horse industry and the cars were coming along, you needed to be pretty freaking aware of how your industry was going to die.

And so I wonder too, some of what I was about to say previously was, I think for some of these genetic companies, they’re almost like Kodak or Blockbuster. They were swimming in the money. They couldn’t see past their own success to the inevitable evolution or the desire of it. And so I think, too, leaders are going to have to be aware of what can happen with this information, how to navigate it. When I think about 23andMe, I think about being informed.

Allison:

That’s it.

Ren:

As we think about information that’s either being given away or being taken away. A leader has to know … No one can point their finger and talk about, “Oh, well, you knew the risks here, and now your private information or your genetic data is in the hands of so-and-so.” Someone will try that, but it’s not working for Anne. And so there’s something coming up for me, this idea of accountability, of curiosity, of balancing between …

[Sneezes.] Excuse me. Keep that sneeze in. It’s human.

Allison:

Bless you.

Ren:

Thank you.

… of balancing that nature between how much can I delegate? I need someone else. I need an expert who’s going to manage this stuff. And then how much should I really, really know? And so there’s something in there for me around, like, I’ve got to trust the people I work with, and I cannot put some of these decisions in the hands of someone I don’t trust. Moreover, I’ve got to trust that this person knows what they’re doing because when we’re in the forefront of this information, someone’s going to know. Someone knows more about AI right now than me. They could use that for nefarious means, or they could use that for positive means. And so, as someone who’s driving the ship, I’ve got to know who I’m putting my trust in.

Allison:

Absolutely. So how do you know?

Ren:

How do you know who to trust?

Allison:

Yeah, I know that’s a really big question I just asked you. We can narrow it down. Let me get very specific. Who are you going to trust to know and foreshadow AI conditions that will potentially impact your job and your work? Put yourself in the shoes of a CEO even. How do we know? Sure, you can hire a CTO. You can hire people who have advanced degrees in technology. Is that enough? I don’t know.

Ren:

Yeah, I think you’ve got to trust what you’re trying to accomplish. And that’s an interesting idea, because is that what 23andMe did? It’d be interesting to talk about, what were they trying to accomplish? Did they ever have a conversation about the evolution of their business?

But I guess for now, when we start to carve into these frontiers, I have to trust some expertise. I have to trust someone whose character is reliable, but also willing to flex. I got to trust my competitors, too. There’s something about … if you can run a 4-minute mile, then I can liberate my thinking to run a 4-minute mile. Sometimes all of our success is my success. And that’s not too far away from some of our frame of reference on leadership.

But I think, starting to comb out who you might want to rely on, but also asking yourself, well, what am I trying to do? And then make sure that I can cultivate trust in the idea and then cultivate someone’s trust in the connection in that idea.

But I don’t know. Especially when we talk about 23andMe, and we talk about, just, the way they try to keep their business alive will sell genetic data. And now, albeit it’s anonymous, but they’re like, “Hey, we’ll sell information to pharmaceutical companies for drug discovery.” And so I don’t know, is that … I guess I can trust them to do what they need to do, what they’re rewarded, incentivized to do. So, how do you answer that question though?

Allison:

Oh gosh. I should have known better than to ask you, because you’re going to ask me back.

Ren:

Yeah. Yeah. You know I’m coming for you.

Allison:

I don’t know. I’m not sure I have the answer right now. But you mentioned something about having people around you who can consider, or start to investigate, the evolution of your business and how you need to evolve. And I thought that was a really interesting thing to say, and an accurate one, even more so than ever, having folks on your team or within your business who can think about now, right now, how you might need to evolve your business. And I would think that’s relevant to any industry. Can you convince me that’s not relevant to any industry?

Ren:

Well, I don’t know. Probably not. I guess the sentiment of your question is no. Everyone needs to innovate, but think about some things that don’t change. When’s the last time a table changed?

Allison:

There are all kinds of tables out there, Ren.

Ren:

Yeah. When was the last table invented? I hear you. I guess some of the principles might remain because actually I’m thinking of … I just saw this clip of these new compact furniture that … a table turns into a shelving unit, like 4 shelves, and then flattens out and turns into a table.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Yeah. I guess all things need to innovate. I guess you’ve got to trust someone to be honest with you, trust not to have a bunch of yes people around you, and then trust to learn the balance between that innovation and that steadiness.

Because it is an interesting tension that 23andMe, or all this DNA mapping, is maps like innovations in science. But then if it hangs its hat solely on the innovation of science, then it’s hanging its hat on something that happens every 30 or 40 years, maybe faster, but still it’s like, all right, when’s the next big genetic wave of materials, products, I don’t know, coming along? Who knows? They’re waiting too long.

So it’s like, yeah, innovate your product and then innovate your business model. Hold on to what made you unique, which is selling DNA mapping. But then maybe like you said, how do I evolve? Do I look for partnerships? Find out where you’re from, and then we will link you to Expedia or something where you can freaking —

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

… get a ticket. Yeah, broadening your mind, not getting too stuck on your own idea. Like authors, be willing to kill your darlings. It’d be interesting to explore what things they tested in the market, but it just seems like they doubled down on the idea of selling DNA kits for the past 2 years.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And it has not worked.

Allison:

Yeah, understandably. And if it’s okay, I want to broaden us again so that for those folks who are listening who are not in the industry, have also just some things to think about.

I was speaking with one of our brilliant colleagues, Renita September, who also has the best name, Renita September, who was sharing some research with me around the future of leadership and future of the future of work, future trends, and some of the research that we found was that economic pessimism, as she called it, will dramatically impact how leaders lead and how workplaces operate.

And I know this is kind of a bit of a turn for us, but I’m just wondering if we can talk about that a little bit, because part of what we’ve already mentioned, part of what will impact these industries as well, is if their consumers trust them. And part of economic pessimism has to do with lack of trust. And so, how can organizations continue to gain their, not only their consumers’, but their employees’ trust, given some of the obstacles that the world is facing right now?

And I’ll say one more thing about that before I let you answer, is that she and I also talked about how things that occur across the globe from you, no matter where you are, will impact your business in new ways now that leaders didn’t necessarily have to consider maybe 15 years ago. So, any thoughts, reactions?

Ren:

Yeah. What was the term? Economic what?

Allison:

Pessimism.

Ren:

Economic pessimism. God. Well, coming from a pessimist, this’ll be fun. Well, I have this idea, thinking about, gosh I think about structures of economics and governance. The stock market’s an interesting animal, and so too is crypto. If you believe in the idea of cryptocurrency, that it’s not going anywhere, then it’s a good investment. And … a no duh, Ren. Wow, you’re saying something novel. But so, too, goes the stock market. If you believe in the US economic system, or rather the global economic system, the stock market is a good bet because what you’re doing is you’re betting that people who are incentivized to keep that economy alive will keep it alive.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

It’s ultimately what you’re saying to yourself. And so I guess when I think about some of my reactions to this idea of trust, it’s how can you as a leader or an organization, or me as your customer, how can you incentivize or demonstrate to me that your idea is tried and true? And maybe it’s just like, do I have to believe in your product, or can I believe in you? And there’s something about the sustainability, too, to believe in us. Not just believe in the product that I bring, but believe in the industry that we are creating.

That was sort of what solar’s early pitch was. And granted, solar got … I think they got flushed into a public market too soon, and a lot of people paid for that. And solar could be further along, I think, in human adoption than it is right now, but a lot of solar is not just betting on me as your purveyor, but betting on us as the industry. Our competition helps us give you a better product.

And so maybe there’s something in there. As an organization or a leader, how can you use competition to your advantage, and then tell people, “Hey, this isn’t just for our betterment, it’s for your betterment?” I don’t know. That’s sort of what’s cooking for me.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s interesting, and I think there’s probably a lot to say there. And I want to go back to something that you mentioned a few minutes ago, which was around … you mentioned something around accountability, too. And something that another researcher of ours, Marcia Dawkins, who’s a brilliant, brilliant author, she asked me this question once, rhetorically, of course, but I’m curious, what we can dig into here is, how can an organization balance the need for strategy and public accountability to sustain a business? That was a very interesting question. And then she simplified it to the question of, what does it mean to be a trusted partner or a trustworthy brand?

Ren:

Public accountability.

Allison:

What’s that?

Ren:

Public accountability for what though?

Allison:

Well, I think there’s probably a lot of things that we could say. I’m cautious because I don’t want to take us down a rabbit hole that will turn into sound bites. I think trusting information, trusting sources, sharing sources that are “trustworthy.”

Ren:

Frankly, we don’t live or operate in an economic system where many people have enough buying power to hold organizations accountable. Moreover, the regulations and governance they experience don’t require them to be accountable.

I think conscious capitalism is, whatever, increasing in some vogue, and new generations want new things from their consumers, but not when you dig into supply chain. Anyone who’s talking about global warming and also is wearing clothes is engaging in some kind of cognitive dissonance. Unless you out there had made your own clothes, or you’re one of those really, really serious people, and I know a few of them, who look at the supply chain of their clothing. And I’m not blaming any of you or any of us. Frankly, I’m wearing clothes right now that I know were not made in the best human or environmental conditions.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And there’s got to be some kind of withholding of your own culpability. So how do you become a trusted brand? There’s probably a few ways. You could engage in the illusion that people are buying into, helping them not feel too badly about their decisions. I think consistency is something. Offering somebody a unique product, but then continuing to offer more.

And so maybe that’s where 23andMe came. Do I trust 23andMe to do genetic coding? Yes. Do I trust them to do anything else for me? No.

And so maybe there’s something about the variability of your business. I cultivate trust in Apple, for instance, because it’s pretty, it’s fast, it’s smart. They have great customer service. They have a built-in ecosystem for blah, blah, blah, or blah.

I think maybe once you start to unpack your brands, you start to realize that they aren’t a one-trick pony, to say. And maybe this is a full circle for us here around 23andMe is, as a leader, part of your job is to make sure that you’re reveling in your success and you’re looking for the next one.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

So a long answer to your question, as is my way.

Allison:

Yeah, that’s all right. Yeah. I think too, what’s interesting, and this is a me thought, not a CCL research thought, a me thought, is that as sustainability becomes more of a conversation in the masses, I have a curiosity around some of the brands, like Apple and some of the larger brands. I’m an Apple user, by the way, because let’s all knock on wood before I say this, but their products last, and so I’m not having to replace it every 6 months or so. I believe in their product. It’s user-friendly. It’s easy for me to use as well.

And as we learn more information about sustainability, now I’m not talking about Apple, I’m just talking broadly about a lot of different organizations … Like you said, do consumers have the “power” to change the way major companies operate and their contribution to things like global warming and the environment?

Ren:

Coordinated, yes. But some of what you said earlier, trust too, it’s Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, just basic human psychology, that if you’re worried about where your next meal is coming from, you’re not elevating your conversation to what brands I trust or what their supply chain looks like.

Allison:

Sure.

Ren:

And so, when we think about most Americans, or most people involving in modern Western economic systems, most of us fall in the middle to lower range of what we can or cannot do in that space. And so we’re probably having different conversations about trust because we’re too worried. Like, I don’t have the time to do the research, nor do I have the money to get the goods that are like this. We talked about with Bryan Johnson and his blueprint protocol, it’s like the things that are good for you and potentially good for the environment are not accessible by most people.

So it’s like, consumers … don’t get me wrong, I think consumers can change the world. They do change the world … coordinated consumption. And then, too, enough when … I have to address some other people’s needs before I start pushing them to think maybe differently about where they buy their cotton T-shirts from.

Allison:

Sure. Yeah. I realize that just took us a huge left turn, so thanks for humoring me.

Ren:

Well, I don’t know if that is a huge left turn. I mean, I can see a few anchors into this idea of the business, and leading in this business, and some of this idea of … How many people listening actually give a crap? Who’s invested in 23andMe right now? Would it matter if they shut their doors? Is this a relevant and useful conversation? Now, that’s … I think there’s plenty of connection.

Allison:

Yeah. Yeah. When I read about 23andMe, it just took me — and it still continues, in this conversation, to take me — broader, and what does that mean for organizations that are not in that industry? What does it mean for the future of work as we consider not only just people’s data, but again, the advances of technology? You mentioned … You didn’t say these words, but what you were alluding to is things that are systemic that one consumer likely isn’t going to be able to change by themselves, right?

And so again, when I think about trust and I think about the future of leadership and the future of work, I can’t help but think people just have to collaborate in new ways and in different ways. And what does that look like? I’m not really sure yet. But brain power, bringing different minds together that you wouldn’t necessarily bring together, today, right now, is going to be a necessity for organizations to stay ahead of those trends.

Ren:

And transparency.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

We talk this idea of leadership disclosure. Ask for more feedback. Share more about why you make the decisions you do. And when I think about Anne’s relationship with the board at 23andMe, I wonder how much Johari window she’s doing. That’s inside speak, folks, for what I just said. It’s like, is she getting enough feedback? What’s working? What’s not working about the business? Is she asking those questions? Is she telling people about why she wants to give a 40 cent valuation on the shares?

And so, I think, transparency is critically important for these things. Especially once we start playing around in the idea of digital information. I don’t know. I mentioned this to you, and I don’t know how many of you saw this, but in California, they finally made legislation that  anyone purveying in digital media has to let the consumer know that the consumer actually doesn’t own that digital media.

For instance, if you buy anything on Prime Video, people, if you buy any video on Netflix or something, you don’t have a physical copy of that medium. That data exists in their cloud, and that data only exists in their cloud because of a licensing agreement they have with the studio. So if they lose that agreement, you lose your movie.

And it’s kind of the same deal. It’s like, what happens when I give my data to an organization and they close their doors? I lose that information. And that’s some of what’s happening with 23andMe and their partnership with some of these pharma companies, is that their data’s anonymized. So even if you went to the pharma and said, “I want my data back, I want my DNA back,” they’d be like, “I’m not going to ‘unanonymize’ this. There’s no way for us to find it out anyway.”

So I think, as these things evolve, there’s got to be real transparency of decision making and implications on the consumer, and likely some stopgaps, like … Yeah, you can’t give 15 million people’s information to something, and then not give me, as your consumer, recourse.

And so maybe that’s more of that trust. And so, leaders, maybe that’s a method. It’s like, how transparent are you being, and how much recourse are you giving people when faced with decisions you’ve made? Even if you can’t change the decision, can you give them some agency in altering their experience?

Allison:

As you were talking about if I download a movie from Prime, and then I don’t know, Netflix or somebody else takes over the rights, and the communication there and the transparency, one other thing that I can’t help but think about that came up when I was reading the 23andMe story are privacy policies, which … Do you ever read privacy policies?

Ren:

Nope.

Allison:

Neither do I. I don’t read those. Yep, you don’t either, and my guess is that most people don’t. However, even if you did read them, a company very well might have a privacy policy right now, today, that they’re not going to share with third parties, for example. They’re not going to share your data, for example. And in a month, they could change that privacy policy. Now, are they legally required to communicate that with their consumers? That’s up for debate. There’s a little bit of a gray area.

Are consumers going to read it anyway? Does it matter? Yes, it still matters. To your point, you should still be transparent. All of that to say is that I do think consumers are going to have to pay a bit more attention to these little things, like the privacy policy, like the legislation that you just mentioned. And, at the same time, I also can’t help but think that humans are going to human. Am I going to read privacy policies? No, I’m not going to. I probably won’t.

Ren:

The privacy policy thing was the biggest, the most hilarious sense of “Involve me, but I don’t want to be involved.”

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Because now, every website I go to is like, “Hey, we have cookies.” I’m like, I freaking know you have cookies.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

And now I have to accept or deny. I got to go through this whole new process. And then I see so many people who are like, “Okay, we raise our fist together.” Consumers, together, we shook our collective fist. We hate these user agreements. You’ve been selling your information. So now everyone just puts these cookie notices. And you know what people do? They just accept all the cookies anyway.

Allison:

Yes. Yes, I do.

Ren:

Yeah. You were talking, too, about reading the little things in the user agreements, but it’s like American legislation. They’re so onerous. User agreements are like hundreds of pages long. Who’s going to read through all of that legalese? And again, so it reminds me, so it’s not only being transparent, it’s like, are you being candid? Are you being honestly transparent? It’s not like, here, I’m transparent. You can find this needle as long as you look through this haystack.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

Is that real transparency? And so I think, again, maybe that’s where this is all swirling around, is as these businesses evolve, as you evolve, leaders and people, being honest with yourself about what you actually have an appetite to do, and then sort of being honest as a leader about what you’re expecting from your clients or the people that work there.

Yeah, I’m not going to be … It’s okay for you to just click yes on my user agreement because I’m not peddling your information to a company. Oh wait, I am. So maybe there’s some spookiness happening there, but I don’t know. Do people care? Yeah, humans are going to human. Because do I have time to care? And if I do, shouldn’t that be —

Allison:

Are you going to spend it reading privacy policies?

Ren:

Yes. Maybe I should be doing something else.

Allison:

… that are in font size 3 and a half by the way, 25 pages?

Ren:

Yeah, exactly.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

They’re hiding all that stuff.

Allison:

But I think where you’re getting me to consider, or what you’re getting me to consider, is something that we might say around change leadership that is maybe applicable across the board, is just to communicate. There will be people who skim your email. There will be people who get onto the all-staff meeting and they’re sort of paying attention. But the people who really do have a valid investment or want the fine print or want the details, they’ll be very grateful, right? They will be very grateful. So I think there’s no harm in communicating. I think there’s no harm in being transparent to the point where you’re being helpful, right? Well, we could have a whole other podcast around can you be too transparent.

Ren:

Helpful transparency, yeah.

Allison:

Right? So I won’t even take us down that rabbit hole, knowing that it’s been 37 minutes. So yeah, I think if I were going to offer a takeaway, I’m not going to steal yours. But if I was going to offer a takeaway for leaders and what they can take away from this episode is silo reduction and starting to think about, who else can I involve in this conversation? And it sounds very simple in concept.

And what I know from lots of research, not just CCL, is that people are meeting heavy. They spend 60 to 75% of their time in meetings. We’re on autopilot. Some people are working on the weekends to get their work done. A lot of organizations are slim right now, so the last thing people want to do is take the time to invite Joe from accounting into an R&D conversation. But I’m telling you, take the time to do it. You just might have a new perspective that could help evolve your business. What are your thoughts?

Ren:

There’s a few things in there for me. Again, our classic CCL thing. I was talking to a client about this the other day. So, I’m going to get to the classic CCL thing. And I was telling them one of the scary … The most powerful lies have a little bit of truth in them.

And one of the hardest false paradigms that I think I work with leaders, and you probably do too, is they tell me they don’t have time. And I get it. They’ve got families, they’ve got jobs, they’ve got kids, they have a life. They don’t have kids, whatever. People are so busy. And I understand the feeling of they don’t have time, but that’s not really a true statement. It’s more like, I make time for what I want, some things I don’t want to make time for, is really what that sentence is.

But “I don’t have time” stops people from doing some of that, and I think doing some of any of the good work, some of what you’re talking about or anything else.

And I think some of the “slow down to power up,” that’s the CCL gem that we always say, is time spent on the front end is time saved on the back end. People are like, “I don’t have time to get so-and-so involved,” or “I don’t have time to break down the silos, Allison. What are you talking about?” I’m like, “Well, you don’t have time not to. You can’t afford not to do that, because then you’re spending all this time on the back end.” And so I think something, too, around the silos in this 23andMe story is this idea of the way information gets stuck in tubes.

I have this one client, and they’re starting to roll out their 2025 planning, which was finished in 2020, and now they’re beginning their 2030 planning. Now too, I think we understand the nature of strategic planning is that you should be reevaluating your 5-year plan every year, but people look at me sometimes and go, “Who’s doing 5-year plans?” I’m like, “You know who needed to? 23andMe needed to do a 5-year plan.”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Because if you’re not thinking about how you’re going to evolve your business or your product, or you as a person, my takeaway here is, and as you were talking, I think I got, is get uncomfortable. I think 23andMe is like, “We don’t want to change the model. We don’t want to do so too much different. We don’t want to move from our true north.” And I understand that, but then now they’re looking at closing their doors.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

So the idea of getting uncomfortable is “try something new.” As a person, get uncomfortable every once in a while. Because if you’re never uncomfortable, you’re just doing the same things. And are the same things going to serve you 5 years from now? Maybe. Tables don’t look too different, even though they are augmented. But are we all in a table situation, or do we need to innovate?

And so always be keeping your eyes on that moving target, I think, being flexing. And revel in the successes, hold on to what makes you good, and add new things. Get uncomfortable.

Allison:

Get uncomfortable. Yeah. I will resist the temptation to dig in with you about the “every lie having some truth to it,” although I want to. I want to.

Ren:

Well, the most effective lies, I think it is, have a little bit of truth.

Allison:

Did you say the most effective?

Ren:

That’s what make them so good.

Allison:

The most effective lies.

Ren:

The most effective lies have a little bit of truth. And that’s where that scary paradigm is like, “I don’t have time, Ren.” And I look at someone, and I’m like, “I get it. You work 50 hours a week. You have 2 kids.” And I hate saying that. Remember, kids aren’t a validation of you being busy.

You work 50 hours a week, and then you serve your community, and then you come home, and you’ve got to take care of your whatevers, right? But it’s that idea there is some truth to it, but it validates the lie, and that’s why some of the best lies just have a little inkling of truth.

Allison:

Okay. Well, we can leave it at that, because I want to take that and run, but maybe next time.

Ren:

Yeah, no, that’s for us … and our therapists!

Allison:

Yes. Really. Okay. Anyway, well, perhaps we can leave it at that, right? So get uncomfortable. Point 1, get uncomfortable. Point 2, do your best to reduce silos, because the future of leadership is going to require you to think and work with folks in new ways. And perhaps we can just leave it that for today.

Ren:

I think so.

Allison:

Great. Well, thanks, Ren. Thanks for the interesting conversation, and thanks to —

Ren:

Yeah, for sure.

Allison:

… our CCL team who works behind the scenes to make our podcasts happen. To our listeners, you can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. Find us on LinkedIn. Let us know what you thought about this episode, and let us know what you want us to talk about next. And we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, Ren.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison. Thanks everybody. See you next time. Find Allison’s DNA on TikTok. I hope not.

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The post Lead With That: DNA Analysis Ethics and the Importance of Leadership Transparency appeared first on CCL.

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